A guide to difficult conversations, building high-trust teams, and designing a life you love

Lenny RachitskyWhen clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders?

Rachel LockettMost leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers. People have climbed the ladder because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room. But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems. You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems.

Lenny RachitskyDifficult conversations are difficult. How do we help people make them less difficult?

Rachel LockettWe operate in tech. We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor, and it's purely logical. That's not at all true. It's completely emotional. Professionals have feelings. People, when they want to have a conflict, they come in ready to prove their point. There's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong. Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding.

Lenny RachitskyTalk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout.

Rachel LockettWhen people are in their gifts and their strengths, they have more energy. We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at. It's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts. What I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting. No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you are hired to do. It's your job to navigate your career.

Lenny RachitskyThe power of this is this makes your life so much better.

Rachel LockettLenny, let's try it. So, I want you to tell me a challenge, something that you're struggling with.

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Rachel, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Rachel LockettThank you so much for having me, Lenny. I am honored to be here.

Lenny RachitskyI'm honored to have you here. I was going to start with a different question, but we were chatting ahead of this conversation and I always like to ask guests, what do you want people to get out of this conversation? And I loved your answer, so I just want you to share this. So, let me just ask you, what are you hoping people get out of the conversation we're about to have?

Rachel LockettGenuinely, I hope that your listeners take away that the human side of business building is incredibly fun and impactful and that it's easy to do. They can do it with simple tools. So, I'm hopeful that through this conversation, heads of product, heads of engineering, founders walk away feeling more empowered and more motivated to attune to the people around them.

Lenny RachitskySo, what I'm hearing is just if you're struggling with the human side of building a product, building a team, building a company, there are answers. You can do it.

Rachel LockettYes, exactly. It is achievable, and it's actually most natural. Leaders want to care about the people they work with. They want to empower those around them. But sometimes the busyness of our world gets in the way and the urgency of the litany of things to do distracts you from the people in front of you. And actually, if you really understand the talent around you and you create an environment where they can be successful, your business will thrive.

Lenny RachitskyI think the hardest part of this for people is just there's the knowing this can be helped with. The other is just being vulnerable enough to seek help and to take this on because it's so hard. Just like, "Oh, maybe I'm not a great manager." That doesn't feel good.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's true. I mean, it's vulnerable to seek help, but I think your audience, I know to be incredibly committed to growth. I hear of people who come on your podcast and they've spent decades focused on self-improvement. And I actually want to tell you a story about one of my clients who loves your podcast, and I was talking to him last week. He's a client I've seen for 10 years, and he's a person who exemplifies a commitment to personal growth.

I started working with him when he was a frontline engineering manager at Coinbase, and we talked about who he is, what his strengths are, and his bigger picture why. And he talked about this dream of creating a global movement one day. He was really focused on building community, and he thought the path for creating possibility in the world around him was creating a strong community around him. And he continually worked on his leadership capacity. And over the 10 years, at some point, he created a tattoo on his arm that's a sun with a redwood grove around it that reminded him of his core strengths and his purpose. And today, guess what he's doing, Lenny?

Lenny RachitskyKilling it.

Rachel LockettHe's not only killing it-

Lenny Rachitskyvision.

Rachel Lockett... but he's running a community, a global community for Coinbase called Base and the Base app.

Lenny RachitskyOh, wow.

Rachel LockettIt's the largest Ethereum L2 in the world, and it's a community of creators and developers, and he's having a great time. He's having more fun than ever. And so, I think for the people who are committed to excellence and impact, recognizing that if they lean into their gifts and they get back into their purpose, they can have more fun while having an impact on the world.

Lenny RachitskyThis story reminds me of just why I love these sorts of conversations because the sort of stuff we're going to be talking about, and we'll get into it right after this final preamble, is stuff that's usually locked away in these very small rooms, are only accessible to folks with a bunch of money. This is stuff people pay tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars for over the course of their career. And I just love the idea of sharing all this with everyone to help all learn from the stuff that you've learned from all these people you've worked with. So, I'm really excited to be digging into stuff. The first thing I want to dive into, I actually asked you, when clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders? And you told me it's essentially knowing when to coach versus knowing when to just tell people what to do and learning to coach. Talk about what you see there, why this is so important, and how you help people develop the skill.

Rachel LockettI think that most leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers. People have climbed the ladder in whatever realm they're in because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room. But when you're leading a quickly-scaling company, you quickly have less context than the people you're around. And the way you were operating before doesn't work because you don't have the ability to wrap your arms around every problem in a deep way. So, I've seen leaders at every phase from frontline managers up to running an 8,000-person company struggle with knowing when do I have to have the answer, and when I don't have the answer, what options do I have?

But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems. You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems. And coaching is a different way. It's an alternative path that unlocks brilliance in your team and is way more motivating for the people around you. So, coaching is actually a learnable skill, obviously, because there's tons of coaches around Silicon Valley, but you don't have to coach in the same way that an executive coaches. You can shift your energy into curiosity when someone brings you a hard problem to solve, and create space to get curious, and help them solve their own problem.
So, obviously, sometimes advising is the right path. If there's an urgent issue, the person coming to you doesn't have the skill they need, that's a time to advise and help. But leaders over-rotate, assuming the people that they've hired who are experts in their domain need them to solve the problem. So, I think it's useful for your listeners to actually know that coaching's an alternative, and I can help them learn some basic skills around this.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. I'd love to learn those skills. What this makes me think about is there's this famous Harvard Business Review piece. I don't know. It's like 30 years ago maybe about the monkey on the back. You know this piece, where it's-

Rachel LockettSay more. I think I do.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, we'll link to it. It's this idea that as a leader, people always just coming to you trying to give you their monkey that's sitting on their back. And they're like, "Hey, this monkey is causing me all this problem. I don't know what to do. But this monkey, here you go. You take it, and feed it, and help it, figure out what it needs." And the role of a leader is to keep the monkey on the back of the person and help them figure out how to solve the problem, exactly what you're describing.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's a great analogy. I love that. I think leaders make things up when they don't have answers sometimes. A person comes to you with a problem and you just want to help. But the best way to help is actually doing something that most leaders don't do well. It's attuning to what is the context? What does this person need? What are they blocked on? And ask them with those questions so that they can solve their own problem.

Lenny RachitskyLet's talk about how to get better at this. But first of all, when you said, "When is it actually smart to just tell them what to do?" You said it's when they don't have the skills to do it. Is there any other kind of heuristics of like, okay, just tell them what to do in these cases?

Rachel LockettYeah, it's an urgent issue and you actually have an answer that you want to drive. So, don't coach and make it a game. You want your person on your team to guess what's in your mind. That's not a good time to coach. You have something you absolutely want them to do. You know the right answer. You want them to be motivated to go do it. Advise them. Help them see the path. But most leaders over-index on that solution. So, I want to share. Maybe Lenny, I can teach you two skills that I think are the basics of leader coaching-

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it. I'd love that.

Rachel Lockett... that you can use in your own life tonight with your wife-

Lenny RachitskyShe's going to love this.

Rachel Lockett... or anyone you operate with.

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettAnd hopefully, your listeners can use them too.

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettOkay. So, the first skill is active listening. And Lenny, you're probably a good listener because this is what you do for a living is you listen to the people who come on your podcast. But I don't know if you've seen Fight Club. There's a quote, "Most people aren't listening. They're just waiting for their turn to talk."

Lenny RachitskyAbsolute-

Rachel LockettThis is rampant in tech. And great leaders flip that script and tune in. They're the kinds of leaders who walk into a room, and they can see the elephants. They can name them. They can ask the hard questions to get people collaborating. So, there's actually three levels to listening. So, the first level listening, level one is internal. Let's say you're talking to me about a problem. I'm thinking about the implications of that problem on me. I'm completely distracted with my own inner dialogue. That's level one. Most people go through their world rushed and in level one. Level two listening is focused. So, you're talking to me, and I can repeat back what you're saying. So, I am listening to the words you're describing, and that's typically what happens in a good one-on-one. We're problem solving together and focused on your words.

Level three listening is global listening. So, that's what I'm hearing beneath the words. I'm hearing what you're communicating, not just what you're saying. I see your body language. I notice your tone of voice. I know the context around what you're talking about, and I can reflect back more insight about what's happening than you're aware of because I'm understanding everything you're communicating. So, dropping into level three listening is what great leaders do when they're influencing, when they're selling, when they're pitching a vision, and definitely when they're coaching. So, do you want to try it?

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettOkay. How about this? I'll demonstrate some level three listening. I'm going to ask you a question.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. Uh-oh.

Rachel LockettYou told me earlier, you're a father.

Lenny RachitskyYeah.

Rachel LockettWhat is it like to be a dad?

Lenny RachitskyWow. What is it like to be a dad? It's amazing. It's like the most amazing thing I've ever done in many ways. I love it so much. It's also quite challenging at times dealing with setting boundaries and knowing when to just let him do the thing he's really excited about or just saying, "no," and just letting him cry for a while. That's something I've been dealing with recently, but it's like everything people tell you it is basically in every way except the joy is so much higher, so much higher than you hear from other people because people always talk about all the downsides, all the pain and challenges.

Rachel LockettYeah, and I see you when you talk about being a father, initially, I saw you really squirm in your chair. Well, this is a big question. And you looked up and down and kind of avoided my eye contact at first because my sense is you love being a dad, and it's so challenging. It's so tiring. And I'm hearing both of that in your answer. The high joy and the discomfort in having to sleep train, and having to disappoint, and navigating challenging behavior.

Lenny RachitskyNailed it. That was very nice to hear. Clearly, you listened to everything I said and that was a really good example of active listening.

Rachel LockettWhat does it feel like to be seen that way?

Lenny RachitskyIt feels really nice. It feels really nice to be heard. And it's not just like you're repeating back my words. It's here's what I got out of the level below what you're saying, and the gist, and the bigger picture.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's some emotional connection when you listen actively, and that took less than a minute. So, what I want to invite listeners to understand is that active listening doesn't mean you're setting up an hour coaching session with every person on your team. No one has time for that. But even in the time you're already spending, just focusing on the other person in a way that is novel and really gives them your full attention so you can see their feelings under what they're saying goes a long way to motivating your team and helping them understand what's actually happening under the surface in this situation.

Lenny RachitskyI think there's just so much power in different words, repeating back what they said. That's almost implied in what you're describing. It sounds like... So, I don't know, like a trick they'll see through. But knowing that you're listening to me and you're going to show me active listening, it still feels really nice to just hear back what I said. There's a lot of power in that and it's subtle.

Rachel LockettYeah. Great. Yeah, there's an element of synthesizing what I'm hearing verbally. That's the focused listening part, and then, mirroring back the emotions that I'm noticing.

Lenny RachitskyThe emotions.

Rachel LockettAnd even things that I'm guessing, and I can say, "Is that right?" And you can say, "No, actually, I'm not conflicted about the challenges of being a dad. I just am so joyful." And then, now, I understand where you're coming from and so do you.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Okay, so this is a core skill of coaching is active listening.

Rachel LockettYes. So, that's listening. Second skill, powerful questions. So, asking powerful questions means I'm curious about what's really going on, and there's not one right answer. So, a powerful question helps you gain insight and it takes you to a new solution set you didn't have before. But it's not me leading the witness. I'm not trying to guide you to a specific answer. That wouldn't be a powerful question. So, something that I like to equip leaders with is four kinds of questions that you can ask to unlock insight.

So, the first kind is I use a GROW model. So, the GROW model just is four different categories of kinds of powerful questions. So, the G in grow is goal. So, what does success look like? What's the outcome that you want to have? Any question that's around defining the best case scenario. The R in the GROW model is about your current reality. Where are you stuck? What are your current challenges? What have you tried? The O is about your options. So, let's expand the opportunities that you can understand of the choices you have in front of you. What are the various paths you could take? And the W in the GROW model is the way forward. What are you going to do next? So, this sounds simple, and it is simple if you take the time and space to listen carefully and ask any of these questions. The people on your team will appreciate the space and time to unlock an option that they didn't think of before and walk away with a concrete next step.

Lenny RachitskySo, just to reflect back what you're saying, so someone comes to you with a monkey on their back. Here's a problem I'm trying to solve. This percent of my team is just not doing something right or this feature isn't working, something like that. So, first of all, it's listen, be very active in your listening. Reflect back what you're hearing, their emotions. And then, ask them questions around what does success look like for this? What is the goal? What is the goal? What does success look like for the thing you're trying to do here? What does success look like? Two is just what's today's reality? What's happening today? Then, options. Here's options that you think exist. So, this is you asking them what are the options?

Rachel LockettYeah, what are your paths forward? What could you do next?

Lenny RachitskyWhat could you do next? And then, this is organic. So, it's not just like one, two, three, four, I imagine.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyBut the final step is just, okay, what's the way forward? What do you want to do?

Rachel LockettThat's exactly right. And you don't have to do it in this order. These are just four kinds of questions.

Lenny RachitskyI see.

Rachel LockettSo, you might come and someone's super clear about their outcome. You know that. You don't need to spend any time asking them questions about that. Maybe you just want to really dig in on where are they stuck? And once they start talking about their reality and where they're stuck, then they realize, oh, I'm stuck because my cross-functional partner is blocking me, and I don't have any relationship with them. I need to go meet with them actually and just have a breakthrough conversation, tell them where I'm stuck. So, sometimes talking this out loud, just creating that space for them is going to help them tremendously.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's kind of an implication here that the person often knows the answer or can come to the answer, and they just need a little bit of nudge to get there.

Rachel LockettYeah, this is definitely you want to coach when you think the person you're talking to has the right context and can solve their own problem. That's a premise of coaching. You wouldn't coach if someone needs your guidance and comes to you and says, "Hey, I'm trying to take my company public. You took your company public. Can you tell me exactly the steps you took to get there?" Not a good time to coach.

Lenny RachitskyThis begs the question, what if they just come to a terrible conclusion and you're just like... Advice on when to actually just like, "What about this instead?"

Rachel LockettYeah, okay. I think that's great. So, if you have a really strong negative reaction to what they're sharing, of course it doesn't behoove anyone to hide that. I think you get curious. "Hey, help me understand how you came to that conclusion because here's my reaction to that." So, you're honest, but you're also curious. So, coaching in a manager or a leader context is not the same as in an executive coaching conversation. You're managing this person. You're responsible for their outcomes. You're not setting up an hour-long coaching session, you're just using coaching as an additional tool in your toolkit from advising. And you're creating more space, maybe 15% more space in your one-on-ones, in your meetings for open-ended questions.

Lenny RachitskyI love this phrase, help me understand. One of my managers used to be really good at this, just like... You could tell, he's like, "Help me understand this part of your thinking."

Rachel LockettYeah. And the other thing that does when you're curious and you don't just shut down someone's idea, is you're helping them think. You're not helping them realize they're going to screw it up unless they come to you for advice. You're helping equip them with the right questions to ask and the right skepticism to have. And so, it's always useful to be in conversation when someone who reports to you has a different worldview than you do. There's some reason they came up with this great idea that you think is a terrible idea. And actually, that's where the learning happens.

Lenny RachitskyAnd you may actually be wrong and you may realize, okay, they actually have the better solution. I get it now.

Rachel LockettYeah. This actually happens to me all the time in talent conversations. Because I have a background in being an HR business partner, and I'm working with CEOs and they're thinking about building their leadership team. And I want everyone to have a very rigorous stance on their talent because if you have an A plus squad, you're going to do great things in the world. And sometimes, they come up with an idea to performance manage someone who's clearly not working in the role, but think, oh, maybe I'll wait six months, and then, we'll have a conversation. I have a strong point of view. I'm not going to let that slide, but I'm going to say, "Help me understand why that is a good idea," and I'm going to press on that. And if they don't come to an idea that I'm aligned with, I'm going to share openly my perspective while still empowering them to solve their own problem.

Lenny RachitskyTo close the loop on this piece of advice, is there an example you could share to make this super concrete for folks?

Rachel LockettWell, I'm going to give you an example of a client, I'm going to call him Jeff, who runs an AI company. And he was essentially playing the role of the head of product also. And he had a growing number of engineers and designers, and his customer base was growing rapidly. And he started to feel completely overwhelmed. So, he came to me and we started coaching together. And soon, he realized that he was the blocker on every decision, every business decision, every product decision. And he was resenting it. He wanted his team to take more ownership. But with some coaching, he realized he was training his team to come to him with every decision because he had always operated that way. So, he decided to create squads and have small pods of engineers, product leaders, and designers focus on subsets of the team. Very normal as you have a small startup scaling. But he didn't have an engineering manager and a product leader for every one of them.

So, this was a little bit earlier than he was equipped for because he did it out of necessity. And he also realized he needed to create some behavior change for the way he was interacting with that tech lead on each project so that they would take more ownership. So, we really invested in this idea of I'm going to start to set the system up so we have a product review every two weeks, they each have clear KPIs they're driving to that we co-design, and for this next quarter, I'm shifting from the role of deciding on everything to coaching. I'm going to really ask good questions in our check-ins. I'm going to align to the KPIs, ask how things are going, ask where they're stuck. And I just had a session with him last week. It's amazing to see him because he's so much more energized. He said, "The squads are moving so much faster. The teams feel more empowered and motivated." And he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026...

Rachel LockettAnd he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026, and spend his time and his gifts. Which are product, vision and strategy. So that's more of a global example of what results from leaders shifting from the mode of solving every problem to coaching.

Lenny RachitskyThat's such a great example of just the power of this, this makes your life so much better. Because other people can start picking up the slack and not come to you for everything. And it's like, listen better, ask a few powerful questions and so much improves, so much changes.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyEveryone around you gets better.

Rachel LockettLenny, let's try it.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, let's try it.

Rachel LockettSo I want you to tell me a challenge. It could be a personal challenge, a professional challenge. Just bottom line, something that you're struggling with.

Lenny RachitskyThat's right. Let me just add, it's like in so many ways the most awesome thing I could ever imagine doing also and extremely fulfilling. And I couldn't think of anything better I'd rather be doing.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskySo I think that's an important element.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny RachitskyIt's this Indiana Jones boulder constantly chasing me.

Rachel LockettYeah, I can feel the gratitude and the resonance with what you get to do every day. And yet I hear you questioning, why does it have to feel like I'm fighting for my life while I'm doing this thing I love?

Lenny RachitskyThat's one way to put it, yeah. This boulder is squishing me.

Rachel LockettI mean, the Indiana Jones boulder is coming for you.

Lenny RachitskyOh man.

Rachel LockettThat's a fight or flight instinct we all have.

Lenny RachitskyThat's true. That's true.

Rachel LockettOkay, so thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that with your listeners and with me. I want to ask you, what would dream state look like? So let's say in six months you're still running this beautiful business that you've created. And you feel differently. What is happening?
Yeah, okay. So what does free time enable for you? When you think about ... I hear your deep commitment to quality products and quality output. But this longing to feel a little bit more playful or flexible with those parts that are essential to you.
That makes sense. And what's important about exploring and tinkering to you?

Lenny RachitskyBecause in the work I do, I need to stay ahead on where things are going. I can't just sit around and pontificate from a cloud. I need to really understand how things work, what's working, what's not, what's real, what's not. So being on the ground as much as I can with what's actually going on versus just putting out content.

Rachel LockettThat makes sense. Your voice is moving really fast. I kind of hear you feeling behind, even in the way you're describing what you're doing.

Lenny RachitskyA good listening.

Rachel LockettWhat's interesting to me is when you're talking about exploring and tinkering, when you first said it, you said it in kind of a spacious way. It's fun to explore and tinker. You're deeply naturally curious. You find new insights. But then I also heard you say, "And it's a way to stay ahead, I have to do it in order to feel like I'm informed." So what do you make of that difference?

Lenny RachitskyYeah. Yeah. Those are two sides of the coin. There's another element of ... I guess let me answer that question. I think those are both true, I don't know. The reason I got into this is because it was so fun and so interesting. Just like, here's what's happening, here's what the future-

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyHere's advice, here's ways to improve in the work that you do. So I still love it. It's just I have less time to do that part and more it's just the machine of the treadmill of content, content, content. There's also just spending more ... I didn't even mention this. But just spending more time with my son and my wife, that would be really great just to have more freedom to go do stuff. Which we have a lot of that, but more is great.

Rachel LockettThat makes sense. Okay, so the goal that I hear is not so dramatically different from today. It's that you hold on to this high quality output, but you have space for exploring and tinkering. And for spending quality time with the people you love most.

Lenny RachitskyYes. One way I'm thinking about as you reflect that back is 25% more free time while everything else continues to be awesome. And the challenge I run into is I sometimes get that extra time and then I fill it with more projects and opportunities. That's the problem right there.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's that inertia of moving fast, taking advantage of the moment that's coming.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, yeah.

Rachel LockettSo that's a perfect shift into, what are your current ways of operating that get in the way of having that 25% of free time?

Lenny RachitskyIt's just agreeing to more things. Just like, oh look, I'm kind of free right now. Oh, okay, let's do this talk here. Let's agree to this thing here. So it's just once I feel freedom, I'm like, "Okay, I could do that other thing." And so I commit to more stuff.

Rachel LockettYeah. And how is that commitment to saying yes to things that come at you serving you?

Lenny RachitskyNot great.

Rachel LockettWell, it's serving you in some ways. You're doing it for a reason.

Lenny RachitskyYeah.

Rachel LockettWhat benefit does it have to you?

Lenny RachitskyWell, it depends on the thing. I actually have a rule of never doing a talk or going on another podcast or going to events really, because I find I never really get much out of it, and it distracts me from the stuff I could be doing. So I've set up a lot of policies of just turning down things that don't serve me. But I still crumble and say yes to stuff.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's smart.

Lenny RachitskySo to your point, there's value here and there when I take on more work. And then I end up overworked again.

Rachel LockettYeah, I'm hearing there's just a pattern, it's like a reflexive pattern of even though you set a rule for yourself to say no to certain things and you seem proud of that boundary. You naturally break it or you fall into filling it with other things.

Lenny RachitskyThat's right. Exactly.

Rachel LockettOkay. So you're stuck in this kind of addiction to doing more and signing up for more, which is so normal in our world, and probably most listeners can relate to that. That's kind of the soup we swim in. So we have to be conscious of what inputs we have around us.

So let's explore your various options that you have in front of you. One that you mentioned already you tried was to make a list of the things you don't want to be doing anymore, like things you want to say no to. And really committing to that and sticking to that. What are the other kinds of things you could do to help you prioritize and create that sacred 25% of extra time for yourself?

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyWhich felt huge. The problem is I still like every week I'm like, "Oh, I want to write about this thing. Oh, every week there's nothing's happening, I got to put this out." So I'm almost not taking advantage of that opportunity. So something I could do is actually not publish every week.

Rachel LockettYeah, I love that insight. What I'm hearing is do less in certain areas and think about your team and really expanding the capacity of your team. And be rigorous about the things you can hand off, that you may have limiting beliefs around the things you need to do versus the people on your team.

Lenny RachitskyI might, I might. And then your point I loved, which is just improve my policies of what I say no to that don't serve me.

Rachel LockettYeah. What are the things you could be saying yes to if you said no to more things?

Lenny RachitskyJust playing around with stuff. Just space to explore and tinker, and just sit around and think. Versus just go, go, go, go, go.

Rachel LockettYeah. I just see you feel so light and excited in that. Like you almost are giddy when you think about that spaciousness.

Lenny RachitskyThat'd be so nice.

Rachel LockettAnd I just want to name reflect back to you how special that is and how much more creative you could be in your work when you have that space and time.

Lenny RachitskyI love that.

Rachel LockettAnd your bucket's full with care.

Lenny RachitskyI feel that, I feel that.

Rachel LockettYeah. So what's one thing you could do in the next two weeks that would help you get closer to the kind of spaciousness you want to create?

Lenny RachitskyI love that ... as we go through this, I'm thinking about this growth framework and I love how you're executing it. Like I see it in action, it's so good.

Rachel LockettYeah, I'm trying to do very simple coaching right now, just -

Lenny RachitskyYeah, yeah. No, this is great

Rachel Lockett... that it's really easy to follow for your listener.
I love that. Think about everything you're saying yes to and what are things you want to say yes to that you could treat it with. So really consider that it's a trade off every time you say yes to something. The more resonant you are with the end state and what's possible for you, the easier it is to be disciplined in the near term.

Lenny RachitskyI love just that element of here's what you'll get out of this. It's not just no, no, no, no. It's like yes to this other thing you really, really want to do.

Rachel LockettYeah. Exactly. Yes, say it like a resonant full body yes to the things that are in .

Lenny RachitskyHell yes.

Rachel LockettYeah, hell yes. With an exclamation, exactly.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome.

Rachel LockettWell thank you, Lenny, for letting me just demonstrate what powerful questions are. And the reason I wanted to do that with you is you brought an example that's actually pretty big. It's an emotional thing, it's a cultural norm, it's a way of being that we've all learned to be through growing up and operating in tech, especially. So even with that kind of topic, using a simple grow model can be useful. But people are coming at your listeners with topics that are very complicated, technical, urgent. But the same kinds of questions unlock new opportunity when it's about how to build technical infrastructure or how to influence the executive team or how to ship the go-to-market strategy. So I just want a name that's very transferable.

Lenny RachitskyI love that I got great advice in this conversation already.

Rachel LockettGood.

Lenny RachitskyWhat a great ROI for me at least.

Rachel LockettWhat did it feel like to be coached on your own podcast?

Lenny RachitskyIt was unusual. I'm just like, wait, I got to get back to asking you questions. That's where our minds are right now.

Rachel LockettOkay, all right, all right. We can flip it, we can flip it. I do want to name that typically when you're coached versus told what to do, you're more bought in. So if I told you, Lenny, I've heard all kinds of leaders come to me talking about being too busy. Here's what you should do. Write a list of all the things you're doing, write the things you're going to delegate, cut out 25% of the things on your calendar. I could have given you a laundry list of things that I thought you should do without much context. But you're the expert on your own context and actually what resonates. And you're much more likely to do it if you came up with it.

Lenny RachitskyI was going to mention that earlier. That is so incredibly true. No one wants to ... unless you ask for advice, very few people are like, "Please tell me what to do."

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyI really love just unsolicited advice. That doesn't go well.

Rachel LockettYeah. And great leaders often say, "Do you want advice or do you want some space to think about it? Can I help you think it through? Or would you like me to tell you what I would do?" And both are fine in certain situations. So asking is useful too.

Lenny RachitskyYeah. Okay. That's such an important element of this that we should have mentioned and I'm glad you did.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. So I'm going to go back to asking you questions.

Rachel LockettGreat.

Lenny RachitskyThis is a good segway to something I wanted to spend a little time on, which is burnout.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyWhat I'm talking about is stuff that often leads to burnout. I'm definitely not burnt out, but this is a common problem in tech. Where people feel depleted and just go too hard. So many people I've worked with just left tech. I had a colleague at Airbnb, he's like a park ranger now near woods. That's how far tech-

Rachel LockettSo peaceful.

Lenny RachitskySo peaceful and so wonderful. But I think that's just people go so hard sometimes and then just get burnt out and never want to do anything like this again. I know that you've spent a lot of time on this with founders and you have a really helpful approach. So just talk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout and feel energized and excited about their work for a long time.

Rachel LockettYeah. Well first of all, I'm glad you brought it up. It's a huge problem. I remember when I was coaching top talent at Stripe, Patrick Collison is really committed to retaining top talent. And I created a program with my team for the top 50 executives in the tech side of the house. And we looked at their engagement scores, we did coaching circles. And it was so sad to see how exhausted that group of incredibly creative and committed leaders was in that moment.

And it's so common that people who start with incredible inspiration and incredible capacity start to feel like they've been pushing and pushing and pushing for years. They're parenting, they're leading, crazy things are happening to the business. And they just can't muster the same kind of motivation they once had. And I see this with my clients all the time.
So I've also witnessed people who are still inspired and continually energetic and seem to have some secret well of some diesel battery, or I guess I should say a Tesla battery that helps them through really hard challenges, and they're still having a good time. And so what I make of that is that when people are in their gifts and their strengths firmly, most of the time, they have more energy. We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at and the things we innately love doing.
So I try to help my leaders see that they can design their lives so they're spending 80% of their time in their gifts. That seems really ambitious because you're stuck within a context that requires a lot of you. Especially when you're executive at a huge company. But I also interact with founders who started a company with great inspiration, an entrepreneurial vision, and their job has obviously changed every six months. Once you fundraise, once you grow a team. And sometimes, especially technical founders will start solving a technical problem they're absolutely obsessed with. They spend three years doing it, the product ships, and then they're stuck managing a board and a team. And they don't even realize they're doing a completely different job than the one that played to their strengths.
So one tool I like to give is for people to actually take two weeks and every night reflect on, what are the five things today that gave me the most energy? And what are the five things that depleted my energy the most? If you do that for two weeks and you look at patterns, you can tell, what are the natural gifts that I'm living in? And what are the things that I'm stuck doing that are exhausting? And they're just slowly ... it's like a slow leak in your gas tank that over time shows up in your daily amount of energy.

Lenny RachitskyI so believe this advice is so effective. This is the way I actually approach when I left my job. I very actively did this. I paid attention every day, what gave me energy? And what sapped my energy? And let me just do more of the thing that gave me energy and less of the thing that saps me. I want to talk about just like, there's only so much you can change, but I want to talk about that. And so initially I was like, maybe I'll become an advisor and consultant kind of person. I actually found that was super depleting for me.

Rachel LockettInteresting.

Lenny RachitskyDoing these calls and talking to people because it's like surface level, here are some things I would do. And it was just so unexciting and energizing. But writing was really energizing, which I'd never expected.

Rachel LockettI love that.

Lenny RachitskyAnd that's what I did, and I just followed that pole.

Rachel LockettAnd it sounds like maybe you need a refresh, Lenny.

Lenny RachitskyOh, interesting.

Rachel LockettThere's always more tuning you can do to your gifts. You're in this amazing ... you've clearly been successful for a reason, you're in your strengths and you're paying attention to what brings you energy. We can always do that more throughout our life. I think it's a process of continually tuning in to where your spark is. And protecting that spark, feeding it.

Lenny RachitskyI love that insight, that just blew my mind.

So very tactically, the way you would do this is for two weeks every night is the idea, reflect back on that day and write down five things that gave you energy, five things that sap you of energy.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's so many different activities you could use. So that's one. I like an activity of actually asking five to ten people in your life with a very simple email. When I walk in the room, what shows up? What are my strengths? What are the gifts? If you really don't know them and you haven't spent a lot of time in this realm, that's also an opportunity of actually asking the people who know you best, what your core gifts are? And when do you have the most inspiration?

You can also look through your calendar and note themes. Okay, over the last month, what are all the things I look at on my calendar that I'm excited to do? What are the things I dread? Okay, why do I dread those things? What do those things have in common? So there's various ways you can get to what is your zone of genius? But what my invitation is to take that really seriously. It actually takes risk taking, it takes intention to design your life around your gifts.

Lenny RachitskyIs there any advice for actually doing this? Say someone's just like, "Yeah, I got to do this." But most people don't actually do this. Is there a buddy you can nominate, just help you do this? Is it like if you have an EA, they can maybe help you with this? Is there anything you've seen?

Rachel LockettThat's a good question. Yeah, I love your ideas. I think that the people around you need to be on board and know what are your gifts. So for example, when I was an HR business partner, my boss bought into this and I explained to her, "Hey, I started at Stripe because I actually know I'm going to be a coach. I'm not going to be Head of HR. But I love working with leaders. So I'm going to do all the compensation strategy and all the org design, and I'm going to help product and engineering leaders. But what I have in the back of my mind is I'm honing my coaching skills."

And so when this opportunity to work on top talent retention came about, it was very aligned in the realm of coaching and L&D, background that I had. So she put me on that. So it's useful to name it to the people around you. What are your gifts? What are your interests? What skills are you really excited to hone? So that they are in a contract with you to help you and really apply your gifts to the business's needs. So that's one thing.
When you're a founder, a CEO, when you have the autonomy to consider, what are the role scopes around me? Then you can really hire around it. So I have some CEOs that I work with who are incredible visionaries, great strategists, really good at managing the board, hiring, et cetera. Terrible at managing their team. They hate it. So they hire a COO. And they work in partnership, they have one person who's really internally focused, they get to be externally focused. That works well, it's a symbiotic relationship. If you're honest about your strengths and you're weaknesses, then you can start to manage around them.
Persona is also offering my listeners 500 free services per month for one full year. Just head to WithPersona.com/Lenny to get started. That's WithPersona. com/Lenny. Thanks again to Persona for sponsoring this episode.
It's really nice to know what you want to do and understand what your dream life looks like. You also have a job, you have manager, you got things to do, you got responsibilities. So I guess first of all, as you have seen people that are not founders actually make a change to do the things ... to spend more time on their gifts, to actually not just be like ... like there is ... you have agency to move in a direction that'll make you happier.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny RachitskyIs kind of an implied piece of this.

Rachel LockettYeah, I think sometimes people hire a Chief of Staff to help them and compliment them. Sometimes people design their team with strengths and gifts that they don't have. So it's really ... you can get creative once you really understand, oh, these things give me a ton of energy and these things are exhausting. But I still need to fill this need for the business. What are all the ways I can do it?

Lenny RachitskyAnd telling your manager, I think, is such a simple and important part of this. Telling them-

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny Rachitsky... here's where I want to go, here's the things I want to get better at, here's the things that give me energy. Can we just try to make as much of my role that?

Rachel LockettYeah. Especially if you're executing well, people want to retain you. They want to know, what's going to keep you here for the next five years? And typically they think that means moving up the ladder. But maybe it doesn't for you. I think it does take the courage to move horizontally sometimes to get into your strengths. I mean, I've moved horizontally a number of times and I love what I do, I feel like I'm in my natural gifts. But it took me a few risks and some uncomfortable jobs that didn't feel like they were worthy of my experience in order to get there.

Lenny RachitskyWhat's a good percentage of your work life that should be in gifts and things that energize you versus, okay, I actually got stuff.

Rachel LockettMy litmus test is 80%, that's the goal.

Lenny Rachitsky80%.

Rachel LockettThat's the aspiration. You're always going to have 20% of things you don't love doing. There's just the logistics of getting into the zone that you need to be in. But I really try to push people to think aspirationally, that if you're 80% of the time in your gifts, how much energy you have to give to the world. It's so much more inspiring.

So I want to tell you why I'm passionate about this topic because it actually is how I ended up as an Executive Coach. So 10 years ago, I was working at a small company called Remind, and I was running the UX Research team. And the CEO asked me to move into the Product Manager role for the Core Product team. And I was excited for the opportunity. I had non-technical background, but I thought, "Hey, all these strategists are up there creating the roadmap. I can do that. I know exactly what our users need." So I was excited for this.
I came into the team, there was I think 12 senior engineers, very opinionated, very skeptical, this non-technical PM, but we worked together. And what I did was I listened. I learned what do our users need? What does this team need? What's working and not working? And with-

Rachel LockettWhat does this team need? What's working and not working? And within a month, this team was working well together. They were reviewing each other's code base. They were really disagreeing in a healthy way in our team meetings. They felt more connected to users. And I felt like, "Okay, this rhythm is working." But what I was also doing as I was at home stressing in the middle of the night about the new user experience, I couldn't decide which of the designs to go with. I was always over leveraging our data scientists, and I found myself swirling on decisions that didn't need to have so much stress involved. And one day I went for a walk with my colleague Zach Abrams, and he was a great product manager and he was listening to me ask all these questions about how to sell the vision of what this product would look like in the future.

And he said, "Rachel, you're a zone of genius or your gift is not being a product strategist, but I've watched you over the last few months, and you have gotten the team more motivated than I ever could, and you've influenced the entire executive team behind your ideas, and that's impressive. You're a people person." And at first I was offended. What? You think I don't have the ability to be a great product leader? And yet I sat with what he said, and I knew he was right. Both my parents are therapists. I never wanted to be a therapist. Here I am. I'm basically a work therapist. I love entrepreneurial energy, I love big vision, but I'm a people person.
And I left that, and I realized I love what my coach does. I got trained as a coach. I went into HR leadership. And Zach, who was a gifted product strategist, went on to lead product at Coinbase and BREX and most recently Bridge, which was acquired by Stripe, and he's still my client. And we've watched our journeys over the last decade, and we've both been honing our gifts. Life is more fun when you're in your gifts, and you have more inspiration and capacity to offer the world. So I just want to share that story because it's helpful to be honest with the people you care about when they seem energized and when they seem depleted because sometimes it's a wakeup call for people to really think about what is their spark and to protect it and to feed it.

Lenny RachitskyI love that story because I think most people when they hear this advice and this topic of, "Okay, I am feeling depleted, I'm feeling burnt out," I feel like most people jump to, "Okay, but I can't actually do anything about it. I have a job. I got responsibilities." What I'm getting from this is the most important step is jump to figure out what you actually should be doing. What gives you energy? What your gifts are. It feels like that's the biggest gap for people because once you know that, there are ways to do that. Talk to your manager. "It may not be possible today, but here's where I want to be going. Here's what I want to be spending time on." I love your point you made though about you actually have to be doing well for your manager to listen to you. You can't just be sucking and then like, "Oh, but I want to work on strategy."

Rachel LockettYeah. Well, it's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts. And what I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting. It's like, "No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you were hired to do. It's your job to navigate your career." So over the arc of your career, how do you match your gifts with the world's needs? And if the world right now is your company, how do you understand the needs enough so that you can apply your strengths to those needs?

Lenny RachitskyThis reminds me, there's a couple of guests I've had on the podcast who did this. They're both founders, so this is specific to founders, but Rahul Vohra at Superhuman, he realized he's not the best executor operations person, so he hired a president that took all that office plate. And then Darmesh, co-founder of HubSpot, he knew from the beginning he didn't want to manage people, so he made a rule with his co-founder, "I will never have reports." And he's the CTO, I believe, and has zero reports, has no one-on-ones.

Rachel LockettYeah. And I think that it's a beautiful thing to recognize that, but then to actually address the needs of those reports also. I think often people know, "Ugh, I don't want to have one-on-ones," but just not having anyone to manage those people is not going to be healthy for your company. So you have to both take your strength seriously and actively manage around your weaknesses.

Lenny RachitskyIs there any maybe last piece of advice on this topic of helping people get to a place where they're feeling much less depleted and just more energized at work?

Rachel LockettI would start small. You don't have to leave your job and redesign your life. You can stop going to the optional things that are exhausting. You can leave space between the things that are depleting that you have to go to outside and go on a 30-minute walk and refuel your tank. Start with tomorrow. What are the three things you're going to do to plug up that gas leak and re-energize your spark? It might even be you love to read and you're going to start reading 30 minutes before you go to sleep every night. It doesn't have to be a dramatic life change, but recognize that only you know what is resonant and what is depleting, and it's your job to take that seriously if you want to show up purposeful and impactful in the world.

Lenny RachitskyI love that advice. I've actually started reading before bed for 30 minutes, and that's been so joyful, like a physical book with a little nightlight.

Rachel LockettI agree. I love a physical book. I have a Kindle, I got all the things, but a physical book on the couch is the best.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, it's just that nightlight is key because sometimes at nighttime you need a night book. So we've been talking mostly so far about individual improvement, how to figure out what you should be working on, just helping learning to coach, things like that. I want to take us up a little level above and talk about team skills, how people get better at working with other people. Something that you are in many ways known for is helping co-founders build better relationships. And in my experience one of the most challenging parts of starting a company is the co-founder relationship. A lot of people don't realize what they're getting into. You're basically getting married to this person in a very high stress situation, and you sometimes don't know much about them.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyAnd then you not working well together is just a huge issue because that all trickles down, and everyone sees it. And when co-founders leave, it's really bad for everyone. So let me just ask you this, what have you found most helpful in helping co-founders build great relationships, stay happy and productive?

Rachel LockettYeah, thanks for asking this. I love working with co-founders because I think your core values as a person come out when they interact with someone else's core values. Conflict, healthy conflict or otherwise, is actually where your core values come out. So it's fascinating to watch people try to do something incredibly hard in the context of someone else's vision, someone else's strengths and weaknesses and navigate that together. So there's so much energy in the co-founder dynamic for me and for co-founders themselves. It's actually something that people don't feel comfortable going to their board about or talking to that many people about because it's a private matter. It's almost like in a marriage you go see a couples' therapist, but you don't tell all your friends that you can't stand your partner, but it keeps you up at night. So it's a really tender, important relationship, and there aren't enough supports for co-founders to navigate it. It's very normal.

In fact, I know you probably know this stat, 65% of startups fail because of co-founder conflict, and co-founders are in a moment where they're trying to build the future for their business, but also trying to build their own livelihood. So there's so much at stake to get along with your co-founder. I think the core at its core, what you need in a healthy relationship is, one, self-awareness. What do I bring into this dynamic, and how am I being experienced by the other person? What does this other person bring into the dynamic, and how am I reacting to that? So the first is just collective awareness about what is our dynamic. I like to use the Enneagram for this, but there's all kinds of tools, self-awareness tools that you can use to give a common language to what is my thing and what is your thing.
A very classic one has to do with roles. CTOs tend to be skeptics. They love facts, they seek knowledge. They want depth of awareness and understanding, and they also like to be self-sufficient. This is a total generalization, but I've seen this pattern over and over again. The CEO is the person who had to sell the vision. They're a person who loves big picture vision strategy. They often are great at influencing others. They love to sell ahead of the reality of what the company's actually built. This creates an inherent tension between blind optimism and skepticism, and it's a dance that these two roles play together. So the first part is knowing the dance you're in, so you're not just stepping on each other's toes blindly.
The second step is actually being conscious about the commitment you're making to your relationship. In a marriage, for example, I talk about co-founder vows and recommitments and renewals because in a marriage you get married, and a lot of times people build a family and then they think, "Oh, the relationship will just continue around each other all the time. We're doing this thing together." But just like couples need a date night, co-founders need time and space to connect with each other to come together and say, "How's this working for you? Are we still aligned on our vision and our strategy? How are we working together? What am I doing that's pissing you off? What are the things that have gone unsaid and that we need to talk about?"
But if you're just in the hustle and bustle of running and scaling your startup, you don't make time for that conversation. So I think it's incredibly important for co- founders to make space for their relationship, whether that's a dinner every other week, whether that's going out to lunch regularly, whether that's just touching base business-wise, but having an in-person quarterly check-in. That space is critical for the health of a co-founder relationship.

Lenny RachitskyOn that second piece, the vows idea is such a good idea. Is that something you actually recommend, here's what I vow to do?

Rachel LockettYeah, here's what I commit to do. So recently I actually wrote an article with First Round, and we created a document to help co-founders think about what to integrate into their check-in. So we put out weekly check-in, monthly check-in and annual and just questions to sit down and ask each other. Active listening skills will come in handy in those conversations, but it's about taking space out of hustling and running the business to think about the business from a like to say, instead of being on the dance floor, you need time on the balcony to look down at what's happening. How are we doing? Is this still working for both of us? And the vows are really about, how are we going to be together? How are we going to show up? What's our culture that we're creating?

Even if you don't want to go through a whole culture exercise early on in building your company, you should have some sense of how you want to show up for each other. How are we going to make decisions? How are we going to deal with conflict? These are things you can go into intentionally and design with your co-founder.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. We're going to link to that post The first step, Enneagram sounds like that's what you recommend, and this is basically a personality profile that a lot of people love.

Rachel LockettI really like the Enneagram. I think you can also simply tell each other, "Here are my strengths. Here's what I see as my weaknesses, and what do you think? Give me some feedback. Do you agree?" And you can do that with each other without any personality assessment. If you want to just be scrappy and have an open connected conversation about, you could even say, what are the gifts I bring and the weaknesses I have, and how will I cover those? How will I lean into my gifts? How will I cover my weaknesses, and how will you? And then I think it's worthwhile having a conversation about, what are the gaps neither of us cover that we're likely going to need as we build this business?

Lenny RachitskyWhat do you recommend people do when they are just like, "Our relationship isn't working great. There's a lot of tension"? All this advice we've been talking about, at the beginning, here's things you can do to set things up for success. Understand what you're good at, what you're bringing to the table. Consciously commit to, here's what I'm going to do, here's what you're going to do. Have these dinners or lunches. I love this metaphor of going out on the balcony and just reflecting on how it's going. So that's all really great. What if you're just already in it and it's really annoying, I don't like this person that much or so much tension constantly. What are a couple things they can do this week, next week?

Rachel LockettCo-founders typically come to me either in this early phase where they want to intentionally build something great and they want to set it up for success. More often co-founders come when they're really frustrated with one another. They feel the tension is palpable. They can't stand it anymore, but they're still really deeply committed to the business so they don't see an out. And they knew that at some point they really loved this cofounder, so they see a possibility of recovering, and that's why they want to go get a coach. I'm going to give you an example of this PR duo running a fierce business scaling really fast. And at one point when they started, you had the visionary who was great at selling business. They were both incredible with PR, and the partner was incredible operationally.

So as the business scaled, one took on a lot more business development and the other took on all the internal things, but was exhausted by all this people management and all of the elements of running a scaled team that she didn't expect to have to do. And when they came, I think both of them weren't sure, can we figure this out? Do we want to just sell this thing? Do we want to keep going? And I think someone said, "End it or send," was what one co-founder said to me. They're coming at this decision point. And what I saw them do is, one, they named current state really well. They were both able to share. We did use a 360. So they got feedback from their teams and then shared it with one another, but they were able to be open and vulnerable in what was working and what wasn't working. Not immediately, but over time.
And they realized they used to love being partners in this work, but as they began to lead different teams, they grew very distant from one another. They were living on opposite sides of the country and actually just coming together and realizing what each other was missing and how lonely it is to lead this scaling company without each other's support and how they actually needed the counterbalance to their strengths and didn't have it was a important start to their healing.
And over our coaching, they turned back towards each other and they created more of a rhythm of how they would get together without me involved. And they ended coaching after our arc feeling renewed and really recommitted. They made some changes on their leadership team to fill their gaps. They also started, I think, meeting once a week virtually, and they started a cadence of getting together in person quarterly. And I don't mean to say that just that time means you're going to heal, sometimes coming together and really grappling. I had one last week where we all came together, we had a great full day in-person discussion about how they were making this co-founder duo, how they were making decisions.
And after that conversation, it was really clear that one of the co-founders was unhappy and didn't appreciate the other one and was not going to change and realized he was a big part of the problem and I think is going to leave the business. But that's still success because it's clarity. You're not muddling in the dark, frustrated, unconscious about the interpersonal dynamics you're in, you're making a choice based on your strengths and what the business needs and this relationship dynamic that you're in to either be in it or to lovingly step out of it.

Lenny RachitskyI love how similar this is to just the marriage, all this stuff. This is the same sort of thing you would do.

Rachel LockettTotally. I mean a marriage, you're building a life with a partner. So the only difference is a marriage is rooted in sexual attraction and love, and that's not the case always in the co-founder dynamic. But I have worked with couples who are also co-founders, but there should be some element of love for your co-founder. In fact, I think that when you work closely with colleagues and you really are able to see their gifts and enable them, you can't help but love them.

Lenny RachitskyThat's a big statement. The other takeaway here is that just get coaching. It feels like that's the solution if things are just not working great. There's only so far you can get just talking.

Rachel LockettIt takes an evolved facilitator, one of the co-founders, being able to hold space for both their frustration and their empathy in a dynamic that is challenging. So outside support is useful. Sometimes it's actually a team member, it's an HR leader. It's the GC who happens to have great people skills. You don't always need a coach, but you need space to be vulnerable, open, and curious. So if you can create that on your own, that's great. I think it's definitely possible.

Lenny RachitskyOutside of the co-founder relationship, do you have any just tactical tips for people to improve their interpersonal skills with just team members, anyone they work with, just people that may struggle like, "Man, I have a hard time with this person. I just have a hard time with a lot of people"?

Rachel LockettFirst of all, people when they want to have a conflict or they want to engage in something that's not working, they come in armored and ready to prove their point. It's natural. You've been thinking about this, perseverating over whether you should mention it. You finally get to the point of engaging, and often there's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong. Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding. So when I go in to have a conversation with, let's say my husband who's not doing his share of the parenting, my goal is to help him understand what I'm struggling with so that he can empathize, see clearly what's happening, and perhaps meet my needs in some way. But it's not for me to prove to him how little he's doing in the house because he might have a totally different story about what's happening.

So I'm going to give you a framework that I like that many of my clients use. It's from Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication. It is a book and a framework. So it's four steps. The first step is observations. So my job is to note what is happening factually. For example, I noticed that in the last three sprint planning meetings, you didn't invite me to those conversations or share with me the roadmap. That's an observation. It's a fact. I could take a picture of it, and no one would argue with it. The next step is feelings. So I'm going to express my feelings without blame. So I felt anxious not knowing what was on the roadmap for the week. I felt confused about whether that meeting happened or not because I wasn't included. So this is me sharing my feelings so the other party can empathize and understand what I'm going through without being defensive.
The third step is needs. What are my universal human needs related to this topic? We all have needs. This is not requiring anything of the other person, just helping them understand my needs that are not met. So I have a need for clarity, I have a need for collaboration, I have a need for connection, whatever that is. And lastly, the step is to make a request. Now, in this model, the request is an olive branch to help the other person meet you and see you. It shouldn't be something that's impossible to do. It should be actually something quite small and easy to achieve for the other person to feel successful in connecting to you and understanding you. So in this case, I might make a request. I'd like to ask you next time you have a sprint planning meeting to include me as optional or to send me the roadmap afterwards that you align on.
Now, the other person doesn't have to meet my request. They might make a counter proposal, but the most important thing of this model in this conversation is that the other person understands what I'm going through and they don't feel reactive so that we can have a mutual conversation about what's going on.

Lenny RachitskyWow. This point about how when you're trying to convince someone of something, when something is going wrong, this point that your goal is not to convince them, that your goal is to have mutual understanding, that just blew my mind, and I think it's going to change my life. Wow.

Rachel LockettLenny, try this with your wife tonight. NVC is a powerful tool, and actually it's very akin to most models that are about connection. The Stanford Business School course that has a T, it's called Touchy Feely that everybody loves.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, we've had Carol on the podcast.

Rachel LockettGreat. Yeah, so Carol Robbins created this movement. There's lit. A lot of founders go to her model that's for founders.

Lenny RachitskyAnd tech.

Rachel LockettAnd this is all about, they talk about a net that you can talk about your feelings and your reaction, but as soon as you cross the net to blaming someone else or making an assumption, they're going to have a defensive response. But you can be incredibly bold and brave if you stay on your side of the net. So this model helps you do that because it's really about sharing your emotions and your needs and making a request without blame.

Lenny RachitskyYeah. So what I was going to say as you were going through this framework is here's me, here's what I saw, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I need. And then now that you have that in context, here's something I'm asking for versus you did this and you're feeling this and you thought this.

Rachel LockettExactly. It also acknowledges that professionals have feelings. I think that we operate in tech. We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor. And it's purely logical. It's not at all true. It's completely emotional. And if we ignore our feelings, they will bubble up, and we will be unconsciously acting from them.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's this implicit power here that if the person cares about you and loves you or values your relationship, knowing that this makes them feel bad will make them want to change. It's not like you need to tell them, "Change this thing. Oh, I didn't realize this made you upset or that you have this need. And now that I know that, okay, now I see why this is important to you."

Rachel LockettThat's exactly right. And sometimes the other person will hear that and have a different story or a different perspective. So they might say, " Okay, I can honor that request," or, "I hear that request, and I hear your feelings, but let me explain what happened for me." And one way you could do that is, are you open to hearing that? So they're able to share their side too. You don't have to just agree with the person's request. As long as you're setting this tone, the other person's more likely to contribute in a way that achieves mutual understanding because once you're vulnerable, they're going to share their vulnerability.

Lenny RachitskyLet me remind folks of the framework. I'm going to try using this. I wish it was a handy acronym off. So the framework is share what you've observed, just the facts of what is happening. Just simply, I saw you didn't close the fridge fully. Your feelings of how that made you feel, the needs that your core human need that drives that feeling, I imagine. And then the request you have of the person.

Rachel LockettYes. And I want to make one note I forgot to say, which is feelings are emotions. So sometimes people say things like, "I feel like you're being a jerk." That's not a feeling, obviously. A feeling is a sensation in your body that results in an emotion. So naming a feeling is actually not easy for technical leaders sometimes. I want to make that point because emotions are what get you to the underlying humanity of connection. Emotions are the key to soliciting empathy.

Lenny RachitskyAre there phrases that are just examples of non-feelings, like using the word "you" in the way you describe a feeling probably is not a good sign?

Rachel LockettExactly. If you can say, "I feel like... " even if you add like or, "I feel that... " you're probably going to add a fact. It should be an emotion word after I feel.

Lenny RachitskySo don't say like, don't say you, don't say that?

Rachel LockettYeah, exactly.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Along this topic, I chatted with a number of clients that have worked with you over the years, and one of the most common themes that they said you help them with is having difficult conversations. And I think we covered actually much of this in what we just talked about, but I'm curious if there's any other advice you have for helping people have difficult conversations. Let me read a quote from one of your clients.

Rachel LockettOh, wow. I love this.

Lenny RachitskySo she said, "Rachel is exceptional at making difficult decisions clear and making it feel possible to get these decisions actualized." Is there anything more-
... these decisions actualized. Is there anything more there for, because difficult conversations are difficult. How do we help people make them less difficult? Any tips?

Rachel LockettYeah. Well, first of all, difficult conversations makes you want to run away. The marketing on conflict is poor, so I want to reframe that. My belief is when we feel internally ambivalent, we have two inner parts at war. And there's something really beautiful and important to pay attention to, there's something to learn, when we have ambivalence. When we are in conflict, something important is at stake. We care deeply about what we're building, about the person that's letting us down. So the reason it's hard, is because there's such an emotional component to it. And there's something to learn from it.

So first, I want leaders who are listening to think, "This is hard, because I have something to learn here, and because it matters. So instead of avoiding it and running away, I'm going to lean into this moment. And I'm going to come out of it not just having solved this dynamic, and not just having said my piece, but having built a skill." The reason I focus on interpersonal dynamics is because the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life. I really believe that. And if you cannot have conflict, you can't have healthy relationships. We are going to disagree with the people we love, or care about, or are building a business with. So first, I just want listeners to reframe ambivalence and interpersonal challenge, think of them as a growth opportunity.
Second, there is always something that we're doing to contribute to the conflict, even if it feels like the other person is insane, and is driving us crazy, and we're the innocent party. So entering any conflict conversation with humility, and curiosity about the other person's experience, is critical to setting the table for a commitment to come out better and stronger. So no model, NVC or otherwise, can fix a person who's coming in rigid and full of blame. I really love the 15 Commitments to Conscious Leaders, I don't know if you know that book, but one of the concepts is about taking a hundred percent responsibility. Not being in the world of blame, being a victim, or being a hero. And I see many leaders, when they're in a challenging interpersonal conflict, being in victimhood, being in blame, or being in hero. "I'm just going to do it for them, and forget it. They're having such a hard time getting this done, I'm just going to do it."
Instead, take responsibility for your part. "What is my piece in making this dynamic happen and how can I address it?"

Lenny RachitskyThat makes me think about, Jerry Colonna was on the podcast, and he has this famous line that I've always remembered. How are you complicit in creating the conditions that you claim you don't want?

Rachel LockettYes, I love that. Love that question.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's so many, there's three parts to that whole question, I won't get into it. But what you're sharing here is, think about that, figure out how, because your point is, you're always somehow complicit in creating the issue you're complaining about. And use that to help kind of put down the defense of the person like, "Here's what I've contributed to this problem." Do you use the nonviolent communication framework? And I don't know, is that just a general way of trying to have difficult conversations, or is there not a framework?

Rachel LockettYeah, no, I think that's a great framework for when you want to go interact with someone around something that's not working for you. I think typically a difficult conversation arises because some feelings are coming up for you, and you have a need that's not being met. And so, that's the instigator to know, "Okay, I need to talk to this person. We need to clear this up."

For example, I was working with a CEO whose co-founder was constantly undercutting his decisions, and criticizing him. And there was something happening, where they'd gone from being this great dynamic duo, fundraised, hired a few leaders, and then all of a sudden he was getting daggers thrown at him all the time. And it was exhausting, and frustrating, and confusing. That was a time where he used NVC to address, "What is happening, here?" And it turned out that the co-founder was really frustrated with how he was spending his time. He didn't want him to be off selling, he wanted him to be helping him with product vision. And they had a totally different conception of how the CEO should be spending his time.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Just remind folks of the NVC framework, because this is the thing that's hard in the moment. Like, "Oh, what should I be saying?" Observe, feelings, needs, request.

Rachel LockettYeah, exactly. And there's a nonviolent communication book, if folks are into the framework, and want to check it out.

Lenny RachitskyPeople need a little... Who was it, you said one of your client's tattooed the vision he had, on-

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, there's, let's just get something.

Rachel LockettMaybe don't tattoo NVC.

Lenny RachitskyBecause that may be

Rachel LockettIt doesn't have a good acronym. You could just print it out, and put it right next to your screen, or something-

Lenny RachitskyAll right, okay.

Rachel Lockett... if you want.

Lenny RachitskyNo tattoos. I just want to highlight the first point you made in this answer, of having difficult conversations. And then I have one more question for you. Just this point about, if there's something you're afraid of, that is a sign you should do that. There's a quote I often think of. "The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek." And the advice there is just, the thing you're afraid of is a compass too, the thing you should do. Because there's something important there.

Rachel LockettI love that. Yeah. It's like, "What's important here? What do I have to learn here?" Is a question you can ask yourself when you're avoiding something. I often see this in talent management situations. A CEO has an underperforming COO. They're avoiding a conversation, because they keep getting let down, and actually they kind of know deep down, this is not working out. They don't want to face it. It's too much work. They need to just keep plowing forward.

And when we really take space to think about their feelings and needs, they realize, I ask them, "Would you enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?" Which is the question we always asked at Stripe. And when the answer is no to that, no matter how many difficult conversations you have, this is not going to work. So then you have to take action. And even engaging in the hard conversation, and seeing what happens, can lead you to the clarity that you need to take action on talent that's not working.

Lenny RachitskyThat is a really cool tip. I did not know Stripe operated that way. We had the CTO of Netflix on the podcast, Elizabeth Stone, and this is very much how they operate. They're always asking a question like that. The way you phrased it was, "Would I enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?"

Rachel LockettExactly. It's very clarifying, because it's binary. People have a physical sense, just like we talked about a full body yes, before? You have a immediate reaction that is honest, to that question, that provides clarity.

Lenny RachitskyAnd the answer isn't, if it's no, it's not, "Fire them." It's, "You need to do something about it." It could be talk to them about it, put them on a performance plan, put them in a different role. It doesn't mean you have to fire them immediately, so it's not necessarily as scary as it sounds, if you say no.

Rachel LockettYeah, I think that also it depends on the stage of business you're in. So I see a lot of companies build a leadership team, and then a year later, the size and stage of their business is dramatically different. And they start to realize, "Oh, the CFO that was really fine back then, is now completely wrong. He should be the controller." Okay, great. So reckon with that. Recognize that in how you're interacting with your current CFO, put out a search. There's many things you can do that aren't firing someone. But in quickly scaling businesses, it's natural that the leadership team's job will change, and that you'll have to make some evolution over time.

Lenny RachitskyAnd I guess it's very important to highlight the importance of operating this way, if you're trying to build a really successful company, is that should be the bar. Is, if you would not enthusiastically rehire this person for this role. If you're trying to build something that's never been built before, and build a company that actually works out really well, you need to really only have people around that are hitting that bar.

Rachel LockettYeah. My perspective, I talked at the beginning about how I'm obsessed with the human side of business building, and my belief is that talent and the environment that you put your talent in is everything. Yes. Building a product and a business is about building something that users need. It's about product market fit, and then the wave you're on. Timing is important. You're going to build a different size business, if you're in a sector that's not growing, than right now, if you're in the middle of AI. True. You're riding a timing wave, and you're solving a core need. But everything besides that is so human. It's about talent, and it's about the environment that you put that talent in. So you need to create the conditions such that your talent can thrive.

Lenny RachitskySuch a simple concept, that I think people overlook, is just everything you do is going to be the people that you have around you, and the environment you create for them to operate. I think your point about when you're doing something difficult, just to close out this element, I love this idea that if it feels hard, think of it as a learning opportunity. I think anyone listening to this is like, "Oh, cool, I'm going to learn something. I'm going to get better." It's such a easier, more motivating way of approaching something that's difficult.

Rachel LockettAnd I want to make a distinction between that and what we talked about earlier, which was, lean into your strengths. Because I don't believe people should suffer through the day grinding, doing work that's depleting. That's not a learning opportunity. Interpersonally, when you're avoiding something, it's because you care about something. Avoiding your emotions is what I want to encourage people against. We have to feel our feelings all the way through, be present to our feelings, and interact with others in a way that acknowledges our feelings. That's what I want to encourage, because actually that's not deadening, that's enlivening. And there's learning there.

Lenny RachitskyA final area I want to spend a little time on is, something that I've heard from everybody that you work with, which is the way that you help them operate. So you just talked about the importance of the people you hire and the environment you create for them. And something that you help leaders do is create a very specific way of operating around a one-page plan, and how that kind of trickles down and just makes everything at a company more effective. Talk about this one-page plan, how you recommend companies operate with this.

Rachel LockettYeah, thanks for asking that question. I think, typically, companies have complicated the process of aligning their vision, their strategy, their goals, and the way people behave with each other, their values. So that all of these things live in different places, are talked about to a different degree, resonate to employees differently. And if you asked anyone at the company, "What are your top three priorities, and how do they relate to the vision?" It's not an easy answer.

So the reason I like the one-page plan concept is, it's simplifying. It's a way for the leadership team to come together and align around, " What are we doing here? What is our role in it? And how do we communicate it, so that the whole company has clarity, and knows how the work they're doing ladders up to our big picture vision that we're all committed to?"
So I actually got this idea of the one-page plan from Alpine Investors. They have something called the People First Operating Rhythm, and they've successfully implemented that at their portfolio companies. And I work in concert with Alpine, so I work with some of their portfolio CEOs. To execute this rhythm. So it's not just about a one-page plan. It puts your vision and your values on the first column, your strategic intentions and your KPIs on the second column, your annual goals on the third, and your quarterly goals on the fourth. So that no matter what you're talking about, in terms of, "What are we doing for the next year, or the next quarter? How do we prioritize?" It's always in tandem with your core KPIs, your strategy, and your vision.
And I love how they instituted that with their portfolio, and I saw the power of it. They've collected some data that their portfolio companies that actually institute the People First Operating Rhythm result in higher returns. So they're very committed to this strategy, and after operating with CEOs in their rhythm, I took some of those ideas and started to help other founders and other leaders with some of the same concepts, in my own way.

Lenny RachitskyWe're going to hopefully link to a template of this one-page plan?

Rachel LockettYeah, sure.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, cool.

Rachel LockettHappy to share.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, so let's do that. And then, what kind of impact do you see from companies starting to operate this way to motivate people to do this?

Rachel LockettYeah. What I see is clarity and alignment. And I also see more connection. So I want to name that it's not just about having a plan, it's about how you create it, how you reflect on it, and how you come together around it to celebrate wins.

So in my opinion, a very under- attended to part of building a business is an operating rhythm. When do you come together to kick off the year, and share your strategy and vision again, and talk about the goals? When do you come together to reflect on what's working and not working, and how do you do that? And in what groups? And are you honest, or are you just kind of doing it as a quick exercise to move on to what's pressing?
So just like I said in co-founder dynamics, a key is to step out of the dance floor and to get onto the balcony. Executive teams leading a complex business need time away from being in the business to work on the business. So around this one-page plan, the reason I like a rhythm, is you can kick off the year with the plan. That's really simple, easy to understand. Everyone can have it accessible and every quarter, you can get together to reflect, "What worked, what didn't work?"
I really like the question, "What's an inconvenient truth?" Air the things that need to be talked about, that no one's talking about because you're too busy. That's the power of combining a simple plan, whether it's one page or not, that aligns you from the top to the bottom, your vision all the way down to your quarterly goals. And a time where you stop, pause, discuss, reflect, have a little spacious energy.
It's not unlike what you said about your own time. You are the executive team. You want a little bit of spacious time to tinker, reflect, create, and come back to the meaningful work you're doing more energized. And leadership teams need that too.

Lenny RachitskyWait, Alpine Investors, Graham Weaver. He was on the podcast.

Rachel LockettI saw that. I saw that.

Lenny RachitskyI love that. Okay, final, final question. I want to take us to AI corner before we get to the very exciting lighting round. I'm going to do kind of a tweaked version. Usually I ask people just, how has AI impacted their work and life? I guess that is the question here, just how has AI changed, I guess coaching, as a coach? But also just, from a client's perspective, how are people using AI to help them in their, I guess life, from a coaching perspective?

Rachel LockettYeah, it's a great question. So as a coach, I use AI in a couple of key ways, that I'm grateful for. One, I use Granola, which I saw you give away to your listeners.
There you go.

So I use Granola to take notes in our session so I can be fully present with my clients, and I can give them a synthesis of what happened and the next steps they committed to after our session. I also use it, I put them in a folder for every client, and so I can look at insights across our work together. What are the deeper things that are happening? What are the patterns that are taking place? I have these in my head, but actually it's a great tool, to see over time. "Oh yeah, we talked about that in our first session. Let's bring that back, because that's what you're struggling with now." So it helps me create the kind of transformation that I want for all my clients.
Secondly, I just use ChatGPT to help me plan my retreats. I run a women's organization, and we have eight retreats a year, and it's a great tool to think expansively about new activities. Once I've gotten the core objectives down, and I have a bunch of ideas about what I want to do, it gives me new creative ideas. So I can put in like, "Here's my objective, here's my goal, here's my audience, here's my last retreat that I ran. I kind of want three new ideas for this session." So it'll give me creative energy that I otherwise would need to get together with other coaches to discuss. And I do that, too.
Finally, I'm experimenting with AI in a way to support my clients between sessions. So I've gotten some feedback from my clients that they would like more interaction between our sessions, and they're always allowed to email me, or text me. I'm available to them. But I think they want to be really respectful of my time, and so some people do reach out and ask me questions, and other people wait for our session.
So I'm curious about the future of coaching, how in between sessions, clients can get access to more of an AI support, where the bot has all of their context, their development plan that we create at the beginning. So that's their goals, for our work together, how they want to grow. Some of my core frameworks, and my beliefs, and my training. And the Granola notes from all of our sessions, so that they can access between, just some extra spot support. They're going into this conversation, how should they approach it? They're anxious about this team meeting. How can they make the most of it? More tactical support. I see personal coaching as still critical for, "What is your vision of your life? How do you want to shift your core behavior to align with that vision?" But then, AI can play a real helpful role in between, on the tactics.

Lenny RachitskyThat is super cool. So that's something you already do, where they have access to this kind of GPT-

Rachel LockettIt's something I'm building right now.

Lenny RachitskyYou're building, that is-

Rachel LockettMy clients don't have that yet.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. That is great. That is a really good idea. It's not replacing coaching and therapists, let's say, but it's adding a lot more in-between time where you could just talk to us, based on everything you've talked about, all the frameworks that you use. That is extremely cool. All right. There's a billion-dollar company coming.

Rachel LockettI don't want to build that.

Lenny RachitskyIt's not your zone of genius.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyRachel, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with, before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Rachel LockettWhat I want to share is that the world is getting more lonely. There's a lot of research on this, but it's also obvious in my coaching sessions, that people feel more alienated from one another. And actually, building businesses is an inherently human endeavor. So I am a fan of this AI boom, I appreciate that we have more technology at our fingertips than ever before. But I want to encourage listeners to think of themselves as leaders who bring humans together to self-actualize, and that they have to actively overcome the default state, which is blind, grind, and loneliness. So I think this is a call to action for your listeners, to connect with the people around them, lead healthier teams, create environments where connection is inevitable. And that they will have more fun, and build better businesses, because of that.

Lenny RachitskyWhat a beautiful way to end it. With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

Rachel LockettI am ready.

Lenny RachitskyFirst question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Rachel LockettOne of them I said before, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders. And I love Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett.

Lenny RachitskyI love that book, too. People don't talk about that book enough. Next question. Favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

Rachel LockettOh, God. I just went to KPop Demon Hunters with my daughter. It's so embarrassing, but that's what we dressed as for Halloween, like everyone else in the world.

Lenny RachitskyI have not seen that. I hear everyone talking about it. I am going to try to avoid it, I think. Next question. Favorite product you have recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be a gadget, could be clothes.

Rachel LockettI really love Loom.

Lenny RachitskyAmazing.

Rachel LockettI've been recording trainings on Loom for some of my clients that are, it's a scaled holding company, so I'm able to scale training in a really human, connected way.

Lenny RachitskyDo you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, in work or in life?

Rachel LockettI have a quote that is on my desk. And I love it. Ready? "If you can see your path laid out in front of you, step by step, it's not your path. Your own path, you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path." That's a Joseph Campbell quote.

Lenny RachitskyBeautiful. Final question. You've got two kids, you said. Do you have any favorite children's books that you most love reading to them, that they've loved most?

Rachel LockettOh my gosh. So my daughter is really into Roald Dahl. I love Roald Dahl, because he's completely irreverent, and he has a crazy imagination. So we've been reading Witches, Matilda, all of his books. And both my kids love it. So, they're five and seven.

Lenny RachitskyHave you seen the Wes Anderson stories of his stories, where he takes -

Rachel LockettSome of them, yeah. They're great.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, they're so amazing. Oh my God. And it's like Roald Dahl is like, I think it's personifying him. He's like a character in the story.

Rachel LockettYeah, he's a character, from what I hear about his life.

Lenny RachitskyRachel, this was incredible. I feel like we've very much accomplished what I set out to do, which is just give people all this advice that they never have access to that, costs tens of thousands of dollars. I think we're going to help a lot of people improve their lives and their careers. Thank you so much for being here.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely. Thanks for having me.

Lenny RachitskyI almost forgot to ask you two final questions. Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe consider working with you? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Rachel LockettYeah, find me at lockettcoaching.com, and how can listeners be useful? Listeners should turn towards each other, build great relationships, and send CEOs and co-founders my way if they need coaching.

Lenny RachitskyThank you so much for being here.

Rachel LockettThanks for having me. Take care, Lenny.

Lenny RachitskyBye, everyone.

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

Lenny RachitskyWhen clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders?

Rachel LockettMost leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers. People have climbed the ladder because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room. But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems. You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems.

Lenny RachitskyDifficult conversations are difficult. How do we help people make them less difficult?

Rachel LockettWe operate in tech. We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor, and it's purely logical. That's not at all true. It's completely emotional. Professionals have feelings. People, when they want to have a conflict, they come in ready to prove their point. There's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong. Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding.

Lenny RachitskyTalk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout.

Rachel LockettWhen people are in their gifts and their strengths, they have more energy. We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at. It's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts. What I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting. No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you are hired to do. It's your job to navigate your career.

Lenny RachitskyThe power of this is this makes your life so much better.

Rachel LockettLenny, let's try it. So, I want you to tell me a challenge, something that you're struggling with.

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Rachel, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Rachel LockettThank you so much for having me, Lenny. I am honored to be here.

Lenny RachitskyI'm honored to have you here. I was going to start with a different question, but we were chatting ahead of this conversation and I always like to ask guests, what do you want people to get out of this conversation? And I loved your answer, so I just want you to share this. So, let me just ask you, what are you hoping people get out of the conversation we're about to have?

Rachel LockettGenuinely, I hope that your listeners take away that the human side of business building is incredibly fun and impactful and that it's easy to do. They can do it with simple tools. So, I'm hopeful that through this conversation, heads of product, heads of engineering, founders walk away feeling more empowered and more motivated to attune to the people around them.

Lenny RachitskySo, what I'm hearing is just if you're struggling with the human side of building a product, building a team, building a company, there are answers. You can do it.

Rachel LockettYes, exactly. It is achievable, and it's actually most natural. Leaders want to care about the people they work with. They want to empower those around them. But sometimes the busyness of our world gets in the way and the urgency of the litany of things to do distracts you from the people in front of you. And actually, if you really understand the talent around you and you create an environment where they can be successful, your business will thrive.

Lenny RachitskyI think the hardest part of this for people is just there's the knowing this can be helped with. The other is just being vulnerable enough to seek help and to take this on because it's so hard. Just like, "Oh, maybe I'm not a great manager." That doesn't feel good.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's true. I mean, it's vulnerable to seek help, but I think your audience, I know to be incredibly committed to growth. I hear of people who come on your podcast and they've spent decades focused on self-improvement. And I actually want to tell you a story about one of my clients who loves your podcast, and I was talking to him last week. He's a client I've seen for 10 years, and he's a person who exemplifies a commitment to personal growth.

I started working with him when he was a frontline engineering manager at Coinbase, and we talked about who he is, what his strengths are, and his bigger picture why. And he talked about this dream of creating a global movement one day. He was really focused on building community, and he thought the path for creating possibility in the world around him was creating a strong community around him. And he continually worked on his leadership capacity. And over the 10 years, at some point, he created a tattoo on his arm that's a sun with a redwood grove around it that reminded him of his core strengths and his purpose. And today, guess what he's doing, Lenny?

Lenny RachitskyKilling it.

Rachel LockettHe's not only killing it-

Lenny Rachitskyvision.

Rachel Lockett... but he's running a community, a global community for Coinbase called Base and the Base app.

Lenny RachitskyOh, wow.

Rachel LockettIt's the largest Ethereum L2 in the world, and it's a community of creators and developers, and he's having a great time. He's having more fun than ever. And so, I think for the people who are committed to excellence and impact, recognizing that if they lean into their gifts and they get back into their purpose, they can have more fun while having an impact on the world.

Lenny RachitskyThis story reminds me of just why I love these sorts of conversations because the sort of stuff we're going to be talking about, and we'll get into it right after this final preamble, is stuff that's usually locked away in these very small rooms, are only accessible to folks with a bunch of money. This is stuff people pay tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars for over the course of their career. And I just love the idea of sharing all this with everyone to help all learn from the stuff that you've learned from all these people you've worked with. So, I'm really excited to be digging into stuff. The first thing I want to dive into, I actually asked you, when clients come to you, what is the biggest gap they have that is keeping them from being successful as leaders? And you told me it's essentially knowing when to coach versus knowing when to just tell people what to do and learning to coach. Talk about what you see there, why this is so important, and how you help people develop the skill.

Rachel LockettI think that most leaders, especially technical leaders, assume they have to have all the answers. People have climbed the ladder in whatever realm they're in because they've been dependable, reliable, the smartest person in the room. But when you're leading a quickly-scaling company, you quickly have less context than the people you're around. And the way you were operating before doesn't work because you don't have the ability to wrap your arms around every problem in a deep way. So, I've seen leaders at every phase from frontline managers up to running an 8,000-person company struggle with knowing when do I have to have the answer, and when I don't have the answer, what options do I have?

But great leaders know that when you try to advise and have the answer all the time, you're not actually equipping your team to go solve the hard problems. You're training your team to come to you with all of the hard problems. And coaching is a different way. It's an alternative path that unlocks brilliance in your team and is way more motivating for the people around you. So, coaching is actually a learnable skill, obviously, because there's tons of coaches around Silicon Valley, but you don't have to coach in the same way that an executive coaches. You can shift your energy into curiosity when someone brings you a hard problem to solve, and create space to get curious, and help them solve their own problem.
So, obviously, sometimes advising is the right path. If there's an urgent issue, the person coming to you doesn't have the skill they need, that's a time to advise and help. But leaders over-rotate, assuming the people that they've hired who are experts in their domain need them to solve the problem. So, I think it's useful for your listeners to actually know that coaching's an alternative, and I can help them learn some basic skills around this.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. I'd love to learn those skills. What this makes me think about is there's this famous Harvard Business Review piece. I don't know. It's like 30 years ago maybe about the monkey on the back. You know this piece, where it's-

Rachel LockettSay more. I think I do.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, we'll link to it. It's this idea that as a leader, people always just coming to you trying to give you their monkey that's sitting on their back. And they're like, "Hey, this monkey is causing me all this problem. I don't know what to do. But this monkey, here you go. You take it, and feed it, and help it, figure out what it needs." And the role of a leader is to keep the monkey on the back of the person and help them figure out how to solve the problem, exactly what you're describing.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's a great analogy. I love that. I think leaders make things up when they don't have answers sometimes. A person comes to you with a problem and you just want to help. But the best way to help is actually doing something that most leaders don't do well. It's attuning to what is the context? What does this person need? What are they blocked on? And ask them with those questions so that they can solve their own problem.

Lenny RachitskyLet's talk about how to get better at this. But first of all, when you said, "When is it actually smart to just tell them what to do?" You said it's when they don't have the skills to do it. Is there any other kind of heuristics of like, okay, just tell them what to do in these cases?

Rachel LockettYeah, it's an urgent issue and you actually have an answer that you want to drive. So, don't coach and make it a game. You want your person on your team to guess what's in your mind. That's not a good time to coach. You have something you absolutely want them to do. You know the right answer. You want them to be motivated to go do it. Advise them. Help them see the path. But most leaders over-index on that solution. So, I want to share. Maybe Lenny, I can teach you two skills that I think are the basics of leader coaching-

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it. I'd love that.

Rachel Lockett... that you can use in your own life tonight with your wife-

Lenny RachitskyShe's going to love this.

Rachel Lockett... or anyone you operate with.

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettAnd hopefully, your listeners can use them too.

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettOkay. So, the first skill is active listening. And Lenny, you're probably a good listener because this is what you do for a living is you listen to the people who come on your podcast. But I don't know if you've seen Fight Club. There's a quote, "Most people aren't listening. They're just waiting for their turn to talk."

Lenny RachitskyAbsolute-

Rachel LockettThis is rampant in tech. And great leaders flip that script and tune in. They're the kinds of leaders who walk into a room, and they can see the elephants. They can name them. They can ask the hard questions to get people collaborating. So, there's actually three levels to listening. So, the first level listening, level one is internal. Let's say you're talking to me about a problem. I'm thinking about the implications of that problem on me. I'm completely distracted with my own inner dialogue. That's level one. Most people go through their world rushed and in level one. Level two listening is focused. So, you're talking to me, and I can repeat back what you're saying. So, I am listening to the words you're describing, and that's typically what happens in a good one-on-one. We're problem solving together and focused on your words.

Level three listening is global listening. So, that's what I'm hearing beneath the words. I'm hearing what you're communicating, not just what you're saying. I see your body language. I notice your tone of voice. I know the context around what you're talking about, and I can reflect back more insight about what's happening than you're aware of because I'm understanding everything you're communicating. So, dropping into level three listening is what great leaders do when they're influencing, when they're selling, when they're pitching a vision, and definitely when they're coaching. So, do you want to try it?

Lenny RachitskyLet's do it.

Rachel LockettOkay. How about this? I'll demonstrate some level three listening. I'm going to ask you a question.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. Uh-oh.

Rachel LockettYou told me earlier, you're a father.

Lenny RachitskyYeah.

Rachel LockettWhat is it like to be a dad?

Lenny RachitskyWow. What is it like to be a dad? It's amazing. It's like the most amazing thing I've ever done in many ways. I love it so much. It's also quite challenging at times dealing with setting boundaries and knowing when to just let him do the thing he's really excited about or just saying, "no," and just letting him cry for a while. That's something I've been dealing with recently, but it's like everything people tell you it is basically in every way except the joy is so much higher, so much higher than you hear from other people because people always talk about all the downsides, all the pain and challenges.

Rachel LockettYeah, and I see you when you talk about being a father, initially, I saw you really squirm in your chair. Well, this is a big question. And you looked up and down and kind of avoided my eye contact at first because my sense is you love being a dad, and it's so challenging. It's so tiring. And I'm hearing both of that in your answer. The high joy and the discomfort in having to sleep train, and having to disappoint, and navigating challenging behavior.

Lenny RachitskyNailed it. That was very nice to hear. Clearly, you listened to everything I said and that was a really good example of active listening.

Rachel LockettWhat does it feel like to be seen that way?

Lenny RachitskyIt feels really nice. It feels really nice to be heard. And it's not just like you're repeating back my words. It's here's what I got out of the level below what you're saying, and the gist, and the bigger picture.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's some emotional connection when you listen actively, and that took less than a minute. So, what I want to invite listeners to understand is that active listening doesn't mean you're setting up an hour coaching session with every person on your team. No one has time for that. But even in the time you're already spending, just focusing on the other person in a way that is novel and really gives them your full attention so you can see their feelings under what they're saying goes a long way to motivating your team and helping them understand what's actually happening under the surface in this situation.

Lenny RachitskyI think there's just so much power in different words, repeating back what they said. That's almost implied in what you're describing. It sounds like... So, I don't know, like a trick they'll see through. But knowing that you're listening to me and you're going to show me active listening, it still feels really nice to just hear back what I said. There's a lot of power in that and it's subtle.

Rachel LockettYeah. Great. Yeah, there's an element of synthesizing what I'm hearing verbally. That's the focused listening part, and then, mirroring back the emotions that I'm noticing.

Lenny RachitskyThe emotions.

Rachel LockettAnd even things that I'm guessing, and I can say, "Is that right?" And you can say, "No, actually, I'm not conflicted about the challenges of being a dad. I just am so joyful." And then, now, I understand where you're coming from and so do you.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Okay, so this is a core skill of coaching is active listening.

Rachel LockettYes. So, that's listening. Second skill, powerful questions. So, asking powerful questions means I'm curious about what's really going on, and there's not one right answer. So, a powerful question helps you gain insight and it takes you to a new solution set you didn't have before. But it's not me leading the witness. I'm not trying to guide you to a specific answer. That wouldn't be a powerful question. So, something that I like to equip leaders with is four kinds of questions that you can ask to unlock insight.

So, the first kind is I use a GROW model. So, the GROW model just is four different categories of kinds of powerful questions. So, the G in grow is goal. So, what does success look like? What's the outcome that you want to have? Any question that's around defining the best case scenario. The R in the GROW model is about your current reality. Where are you stuck? What are your current challenges? What have you tried? The O is about your options. So, let's expand the opportunities that you can understand of the choices you have in front of you. What are the various paths you could take? And the W in the GROW model is the way forward. What are you going to do next? So, this sounds simple, and it is simple if you take the time and space to listen carefully and ask any of these questions. The people on your team will appreciate the space and time to unlock an option that they didn't think of before and walk away with a concrete next step.

Lenny RachitskySo, just to reflect back what you're saying, so someone comes to you with a monkey on their back. Here's a problem I'm trying to solve. This percent of my team is just not doing something right or this feature isn't working, something like that. So, first of all, it's listen, be very active in your listening. Reflect back what you're hearing, their emotions. And then, ask them questions around what does success look like for this? What is the goal? What is the goal? What does success look like for the thing you're trying to do here? What does success look like? Two is just what's today's reality? What's happening today? Then, options. Here's options that you think exist. So, this is you asking them what are the options?

Rachel LockettYeah, what are your paths forward? What could you do next?

Lenny RachitskyWhat could you do next? And then, this is organic. So, it's not just like one, two, three, four, I imagine.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyBut the final step is just, okay, what's the way forward? What do you want to do?

Rachel LockettThat's exactly right. And you don't have to do it in this order. These are just four kinds of questions.

Lenny RachitskyI see.

Rachel LockettSo, you might come and someone's super clear about their outcome. You know that. You don't need to spend any time asking them questions about that. Maybe you just want to really dig in on where are they stuck? And once they start talking about their reality and where they're stuck, then they realize, oh, I'm stuck because my cross-functional partner is blocking me, and I don't have any relationship with them. I need to go meet with them actually and just have a breakthrough conversation, tell them where I'm stuck. So, sometimes talking this out loud, just creating that space for them is going to help them tremendously.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's kind of an implication here that the person often knows the answer or can come to the answer, and they just need a little bit of nudge to get there.

Rachel LockettYeah, this is definitely you want to coach when you think the person you're talking to has the right context and can solve their own problem. That's a premise of coaching. You wouldn't coach if someone needs your guidance and comes to you and says, "Hey, I'm trying to take my company public. You took your company public. Can you tell me exactly the steps you took to get there?" Not a good time to coach.

Lenny RachitskyThis begs the question, what if they just come to a terrible conclusion and you're just like... Advice on when to actually just like, "What about this instead?"

Rachel LockettYeah, okay. I think that's great. So, if you have a really strong negative reaction to what they're sharing, of course it doesn't behoove anyone to hide that. I think you get curious. "Hey, help me understand how you came to that conclusion because here's my reaction to that." So, you're honest, but you're also curious. So, coaching in a manager or a leader context is not the same as in an executive coaching conversation. You're managing this person. You're responsible for their outcomes. You're not setting up an hour-long coaching session, you're just using coaching as an additional tool in your toolkit from advising. And you're creating more space, maybe 15% more space in your one-on-ones, in your meetings for open-ended questions.

Lenny RachitskyI love this phrase, help me understand. One of my managers used to be really good at this, just like... You could tell, he's like, "Help me understand this part of your thinking."

Rachel LockettYeah. And the other thing that does when you're curious and you don't just shut down someone's idea, is you're helping them think. You're not helping them realize they're going to screw it up unless they come to you for advice. You're helping equip them with the right questions to ask and the right skepticism to have. And so, it's always useful to be in conversation when someone who reports to you has a different worldview than you do. There's some reason they came up with this great idea that you think is a terrible idea. And actually, that's where the learning happens.

Lenny RachitskyAnd you may actually be wrong and you may realize, okay, they actually have the better solution. I get it now.

Rachel LockettYeah. This actually happens to me all the time in talent conversations. Because I have a background in being an HR business partner, and I'm working with CEOs and they're thinking about building their leadership team. And I want everyone to have a very rigorous stance on their talent because if you have an A plus squad, you're going to do great things in the world. And sometimes, they come up with an idea to performance manage someone who's clearly not working in the role, but think, oh, maybe I'll wait six months, and then, we'll have a conversation. I have a strong point of view. I'm not going to let that slide, but I'm going to say, "Help me understand why that is a good idea," and I'm going to press on that. And if they don't come to an idea that I'm aligned with, I'm going to share openly my perspective while still empowering them to solve their own problem.

Lenny RachitskyTo close the loop on this piece of advice, is there an example you could share to make this super concrete for folks?

Rachel LockettWell, I'm going to give you an example of a client, I'm going to call him Jeff, who runs an AI company. And he was essentially playing the role of the head of product also. And he had a growing number of engineers and designers, and his customer base was growing rapidly. And he started to feel completely overwhelmed. So, he came to me and we started coaching together. And soon, he realized that he was the blocker on every decision, every business decision, every product decision. And he was resenting it. He wanted his team to take more ownership. But with some coaching, he realized he was training his team to come to him with every decision because he had always operated that way. So, he decided to create squads and have small pods of engineers, product leaders, and designers focus on subsets of the team. Very normal as you have a small startup scaling. But he didn't have an engineering manager and a product leader for every one of them.

So, this was a little bit earlier than he was equipped for because he did it out of necessity. And he also realized he needed to create some behavior change for the way he was interacting with that tech lead on each project so that they would take more ownership. So, we really invested in this idea of I'm going to start to set the system up so we have a product review every two weeks, they each have clear KPIs they're driving to that we co-design, and for this next quarter, I'm shifting from the role of deciding on everything to coaching. I'm going to really ask good questions in our check-ins. I'm going to align to the KPIs, ask how things are going, ask where they're stuck. And I just had a session with him last week. It's amazing to see him because he's so much more energized. He said, "The squads are moving so much faster. The teams feel more empowered and motivated." And he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026...

Rachel LockettAnd he has time to pick his head up and plan for 2026, and spend his time and his gifts. Which are product, vision and strategy. So that's more of a global example of what results from leaders shifting from the mode of solving every problem to coaching.

Lenny RachitskyThat's such a great example of just the power of this, this makes your life so much better. Because other people can start picking up the slack and not come to you for everything. And it's like, listen better, ask a few powerful questions and so much improves, so much changes.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyEveryone around you gets better.

Rachel LockettLenny, let's try it.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, let's try it.

Rachel LockettSo I want you to tell me a challenge. It could be a personal challenge, a professional challenge. Just bottom line, something that you're struggling with.

Lenny RachitskyThat's right. Let me just add, it's like in so many ways the most awesome thing I could ever imagine doing also and extremely fulfilling. And I couldn't think of anything better I'd rather be doing.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskySo I think that's an important element.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny RachitskyIt's this Indiana Jones boulder constantly chasing me.

Rachel LockettYeah, I can feel the gratitude and the resonance with what you get to do every day. And yet I hear you questioning, why does it have to feel like I'm fighting for my life while I'm doing this thing I love?

Lenny RachitskyThat's one way to put it, yeah. This boulder is squishing me.

Rachel LockettI mean, the Indiana Jones boulder is coming for you.

Lenny RachitskyOh man.

Rachel LockettThat's a fight or flight instinct we all have.

Lenny RachitskyThat's true. That's true.

Rachel LockettOkay, so thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that with your listeners and with me. I want to ask you, what would dream state look like? So let's say in six months you're still running this beautiful business that you've created. And you feel differently. What is happening?
Yeah, okay. So what does free time enable for you? When you think about ... I hear your deep commitment to quality products and quality output. But this longing to feel a little bit more playful or flexible with those parts that are essential to you.
That makes sense. And what's important about exploring and tinkering to you?

Lenny RachitskyBecause in the work I do, I need to stay ahead on where things are going. I can't just sit around and pontificate from a cloud. I need to really understand how things work, what's working, what's not, what's real, what's not. So being on the ground as much as I can with what's actually going on versus just putting out content.

Rachel LockettThat makes sense. Your voice is moving really fast. I kind of hear you feeling behind, even in the way you're describing what you're doing.

Lenny RachitskyA good listening.

Rachel LockettWhat's interesting to me is when you're talking about exploring and tinkering, when you first said it, you said it in kind of a spacious way. It's fun to explore and tinker. You're deeply naturally curious. You find new insights. But then I also heard you say, "And it's a way to stay ahead, I have to do it in order to feel like I'm informed." So what do you make of that difference?

Lenny RachitskyYeah. Yeah. Those are two sides of the coin. There's another element of ... I guess let me answer that question. I think those are both true, I don't know. The reason I got into this is because it was so fun and so interesting. Just like, here's what's happening, here's what the future-

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyHere's advice, here's ways to improve in the work that you do. So I still love it. It's just I have less time to do that part and more it's just the machine of the treadmill of content, content, content. There's also just spending more ... I didn't even mention this. But just spending more time with my son and my wife, that would be really great just to have more freedom to go do stuff. Which we have a lot of that, but more is great.

Rachel LockettThat makes sense. Okay, so the goal that I hear is not so dramatically different from today. It's that you hold on to this high quality output, but you have space for exploring and tinkering. And for spending quality time with the people you love most.

Lenny RachitskyYes. One way I'm thinking about as you reflect that back is 25% more free time while everything else continues to be awesome. And the challenge I run into is I sometimes get that extra time and then I fill it with more projects and opportunities. That's the problem right there.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's that inertia of moving fast, taking advantage of the moment that's coming.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, yeah.

Rachel LockettSo that's a perfect shift into, what are your current ways of operating that get in the way of having that 25% of free time?

Lenny RachitskyIt's just agreeing to more things. Just like, oh look, I'm kind of free right now. Oh, okay, let's do this talk here. Let's agree to this thing here. So it's just once I feel freedom, I'm like, "Okay, I could do that other thing." And so I commit to more stuff.

Rachel LockettYeah. And how is that commitment to saying yes to things that come at you serving you?

Lenny RachitskyNot great.

Rachel LockettWell, it's serving you in some ways. You're doing it for a reason.

Lenny RachitskyYeah.

Rachel LockettWhat benefit does it have to you?

Lenny RachitskyWell, it depends on the thing. I actually have a rule of never doing a talk or going on another podcast or going to events really, because I find I never really get much out of it, and it distracts me from the stuff I could be doing. So I've set up a lot of policies of just turning down things that don't serve me. But I still crumble and say yes to stuff.

Rachel LockettYeah, that's smart.

Lenny RachitskySo to your point, there's value here and there when I take on more work. And then I end up overworked again.

Rachel LockettYeah, I'm hearing there's just a pattern, it's like a reflexive pattern of even though you set a rule for yourself to say no to certain things and you seem proud of that boundary. You naturally break it or you fall into filling it with other things.

Lenny RachitskyThat's right. Exactly.

Rachel LockettOkay. So you're stuck in this kind of addiction to doing more and signing up for more, which is so normal in our world, and probably most listeners can relate to that. That's kind of the soup we swim in. So we have to be conscious of what inputs we have around us.

So let's explore your various options that you have in front of you. One that you mentioned already you tried was to make a list of the things you don't want to be doing anymore, like things you want to say no to. And really committing to that and sticking to that. What are the other kinds of things you could do to help you prioritize and create that sacred 25% of extra time for yourself?

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyWhich felt huge. The problem is I still like every week I'm like, "Oh, I want to write about this thing. Oh, every week there's nothing's happening, I got to put this out." So I'm almost not taking advantage of that opportunity. So something I could do is actually not publish every week.

Rachel LockettYeah, I love that insight. What I'm hearing is do less in certain areas and think about your team and really expanding the capacity of your team. And be rigorous about the things you can hand off, that you may have limiting beliefs around the things you need to do versus the people on your team.

Lenny RachitskyI might, I might. And then your point I loved, which is just improve my policies of what I say no to that don't serve me.

Rachel LockettYeah. What are the things you could be saying yes to if you said no to more things?

Lenny RachitskyJust playing around with stuff. Just space to explore and tinker, and just sit around and think. Versus just go, go, go, go, go.

Rachel LockettYeah. I just see you feel so light and excited in that. Like you almost are giddy when you think about that spaciousness.

Lenny RachitskyThat'd be so nice.

Rachel LockettAnd I just want to name reflect back to you how special that is and how much more creative you could be in your work when you have that space and time.

Lenny RachitskyI love that.

Rachel LockettAnd your bucket's full with care.

Lenny RachitskyI feel that, I feel that.

Rachel LockettYeah. So what's one thing you could do in the next two weeks that would help you get closer to the kind of spaciousness you want to create?

Lenny RachitskyI love that ... as we go through this, I'm thinking about this growth framework and I love how you're executing it. Like I see it in action, it's so good.

Rachel LockettYeah, I'm trying to do very simple coaching right now, just -

Lenny RachitskyYeah, yeah. No, this is great

Rachel Lockett... that it's really easy to follow for your listener.
I love that. Think about everything you're saying yes to and what are things you want to say yes to that you could treat it with. So really consider that it's a trade off every time you say yes to something. The more resonant you are with the end state and what's possible for you, the easier it is to be disciplined in the near term.

Lenny RachitskyI love just that element of here's what you'll get out of this. It's not just no, no, no, no. It's like yes to this other thing you really, really want to do.

Rachel LockettYeah. Exactly. Yes, say it like a resonant full body yes to the things that are in .

Lenny RachitskyHell yes.

Rachel LockettYeah, hell yes. With an exclamation, exactly.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome.

Rachel LockettWell thank you, Lenny, for letting me just demonstrate what powerful questions are. And the reason I wanted to do that with you is you brought an example that's actually pretty big. It's an emotional thing, it's a cultural norm, it's a way of being that we've all learned to be through growing up and operating in tech, especially. So even with that kind of topic, using a simple grow model can be useful. But people are coming at your listeners with topics that are very complicated, technical, urgent. But the same kinds of questions unlock new opportunity when it's about how to build technical infrastructure or how to influence the executive team or how to ship the go-to-market strategy. So I just want a name that's very transferable.

Lenny RachitskyI love that I got great advice in this conversation already.

Rachel LockettGood.

Lenny RachitskyWhat a great ROI for me at least.

Rachel LockettWhat did it feel like to be coached on your own podcast?

Lenny RachitskyIt was unusual. I'm just like, wait, I got to get back to asking you questions. That's where our minds are right now.

Rachel LockettOkay, all right, all right. We can flip it, we can flip it. I do want to name that typically when you're coached versus told what to do, you're more bought in. So if I told you, Lenny, I've heard all kinds of leaders come to me talking about being too busy. Here's what you should do. Write a list of all the things you're doing, write the things you're going to delegate, cut out 25% of the things on your calendar. I could have given you a laundry list of things that I thought you should do without much context. But you're the expert on your own context and actually what resonates. And you're much more likely to do it if you came up with it.

Lenny RachitskyI was going to mention that earlier. That is so incredibly true. No one wants to ... unless you ask for advice, very few people are like, "Please tell me what to do."

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyI really love just unsolicited advice. That doesn't go well.

Rachel LockettYeah. And great leaders often say, "Do you want advice or do you want some space to think about it? Can I help you think it through? Or would you like me to tell you what I would do?" And both are fine in certain situations. So asking is useful too.

Lenny RachitskyYeah. Okay. That's such an important element of this that we should have mentioned and I'm glad you did.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. So I'm going to go back to asking you questions.

Rachel LockettGreat.

Lenny RachitskyThis is a good segway to something I wanted to spend a little time on, which is burnout.

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyWhat I'm talking about is stuff that often leads to burnout. I'm definitely not burnt out, but this is a common problem in tech. Where people feel depleted and just go too hard. So many people I've worked with just left tech. I had a colleague at Airbnb, he's like a park ranger now near woods. That's how far tech-

Rachel LockettSo peaceful.

Lenny RachitskySo peaceful and so wonderful. But I think that's just people go so hard sometimes and then just get burnt out and never want to do anything like this again. I know that you've spent a lot of time on this with founders and you have a really helpful approach. So just talk about what you've learned about helping leaders in tech avoid burnout and feel energized and excited about their work for a long time.

Rachel LockettYeah. Well first of all, I'm glad you brought it up. It's a huge problem. I remember when I was coaching top talent at Stripe, Patrick Collison is really committed to retaining top talent. And I created a program with my team for the top 50 executives in the tech side of the house. And we looked at their engagement scores, we did coaching circles. And it was so sad to see how exhausted that group of incredibly creative and committed leaders was in that moment.

And it's so common that people who start with incredible inspiration and incredible capacity start to feel like they've been pushing and pushing and pushing for years. They're parenting, they're leading, crazy things are happening to the business. And they just can't muster the same kind of motivation they once had. And I see this with my clients all the time.
So I've also witnessed people who are still inspired and continually energetic and seem to have some secret well of some diesel battery, or I guess I should say a Tesla battery that helps them through really hard challenges, and they're still having a good time. And so what I make of that is that when people are in their gifts and their strengths firmly, most of the time, they have more energy. We all have more energy when we're operating from the things we naturally are good at and the things we innately love doing.
So I try to help my leaders see that they can design their lives so they're spending 80% of their time in their gifts. That seems really ambitious because you're stuck within a context that requires a lot of you. Especially when you're executive at a huge company. But I also interact with founders who started a company with great inspiration, an entrepreneurial vision, and their job has obviously changed every six months. Once you fundraise, once you grow a team. And sometimes, especially technical founders will start solving a technical problem they're absolutely obsessed with. They spend three years doing it, the product ships, and then they're stuck managing a board and a team. And they don't even realize they're doing a completely different job than the one that played to their strengths.
So one tool I like to give is for people to actually take two weeks and every night reflect on, what are the five things today that gave me the most energy? And what are the five things that depleted my energy the most? If you do that for two weeks and you look at patterns, you can tell, what are the natural gifts that I'm living in? And what are the things that I'm stuck doing that are exhausting? And they're just slowly ... it's like a slow leak in your gas tank that over time shows up in your daily amount of energy.

Lenny RachitskyI so believe this advice is so effective. This is the way I actually approach when I left my job. I very actively did this. I paid attention every day, what gave me energy? And what sapped my energy? And let me just do more of the thing that gave me energy and less of the thing that saps me. I want to talk about just like, there's only so much you can change, but I want to talk about that. And so initially I was like, maybe I'll become an advisor and consultant kind of person. I actually found that was super depleting for me.

Rachel LockettInteresting.

Lenny RachitskyDoing these calls and talking to people because it's like surface level, here are some things I would do. And it was just so unexciting and energizing. But writing was really energizing, which I'd never expected.

Rachel LockettI love that.

Lenny RachitskyAnd that's what I did, and I just followed that pole.

Rachel LockettAnd it sounds like maybe you need a refresh, Lenny.

Lenny RachitskyOh, interesting.

Rachel LockettThere's always more tuning you can do to your gifts. You're in this amazing ... you've clearly been successful for a reason, you're in your strengths and you're paying attention to what brings you energy. We can always do that more throughout our life. I think it's a process of continually tuning in to where your spark is. And protecting that spark, feeding it.

Lenny RachitskyI love that insight, that just blew my mind.

So very tactically, the way you would do this is for two weeks every night is the idea, reflect back on that day and write down five things that gave you energy, five things that sap you of energy.

Rachel LockettYeah, there's so many different activities you could use. So that's one. I like an activity of actually asking five to ten people in your life with a very simple email. When I walk in the room, what shows up? What are my strengths? What are the gifts? If you really don't know them and you haven't spent a lot of time in this realm, that's also an opportunity of actually asking the people who know you best, what your core gifts are? And when do you have the most inspiration?

You can also look through your calendar and note themes. Okay, over the last month, what are all the things I look at on my calendar that I'm excited to do? What are the things I dread? Okay, why do I dread those things? What do those things have in common? So there's various ways you can get to what is your zone of genius? But what my invitation is to take that really seriously. It actually takes risk taking, it takes intention to design your life around your gifts.

Lenny RachitskyIs there any advice for actually doing this? Say someone's just like, "Yeah, I got to do this." But most people don't actually do this. Is there a buddy you can nominate, just help you do this? Is it like if you have an EA, they can maybe help you with this? Is there anything you've seen?

Rachel LockettThat's a good question. Yeah, I love your ideas. I think that the people around you need to be on board and know what are your gifts. So for example, when I was an HR business partner, my boss bought into this and I explained to her, "Hey, I started at Stripe because I actually know I'm going to be a coach. I'm not going to be Head of HR. But I love working with leaders. So I'm going to do all the compensation strategy and all the org design, and I'm going to help product and engineering leaders. But what I have in the back of my mind is I'm honing my coaching skills."

And so when this opportunity to work on top talent retention came about, it was very aligned in the realm of coaching and L&D, background that I had. So she put me on that. So it's useful to name it to the people around you. What are your gifts? What are your interests? What skills are you really excited to hone? So that they are in a contract with you to help you and really apply your gifts to the business's needs. So that's one thing.
When you're a founder, a CEO, when you have the autonomy to consider, what are the role scopes around me? Then you can really hire around it. So I have some CEOs that I work with who are incredible visionaries, great strategists, really good at managing the board, hiring, et cetera. Terrible at managing their team. They hate it. So they hire a COO. And they work in partnership, they have one person who's really internally focused, they get to be externally focused. That works well, it's a symbiotic relationship. If you're honest about your strengths and you're weaknesses, then you can start to manage around them.
Persona is also offering my listeners 500 free services per month for one full year. Just head to WithPersona.com/Lenny to get started. That's WithPersona. com/Lenny. Thanks again to Persona for sponsoring this episode.
It's really nice to know what you want to do and understand what your dream life looks like. You also have a job, you have manager, you got things to do, you got responsibilities. So I guess first of all, as you have seen people that are not founders actually make a change to do the things ... to spend more time on their gifts, to actually not just be like ... like there is ... you have agency to move in a direction that'll make you happier.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny RachitskyIs kind of an implied piece of this.

Rachel LockettYeah, I think sometimes people hire a Chief of Staff to help them and compliment them. Sometimes people design their team with strengths and gifts that they don't have. So it's really ... you can get creative once you really understand, oh, these things give me a ton of energy and these things are exhausting. But I still need to fill this need for the business. What are all the ways I can do it?

Lenny RachitskyAnd telling your manager, I think, is such a simple and important part of this. Telling them-

Rachel LockettAbsolutely.

Lenny Rachitsky... here's where I want to go, here's the things I want to get better at, here's the things that give me energy. Can we just try to make as much of my role that?

Rachel LockettYeah. Especially if you're executing well, people want to retain you. They want to know, what's going to keep you here for the next five years? And typically they think that means moving up the ladder. But maybe it doesn't for you. I think it does take the courage to move horizontally sometimes to get into your strengths. I mean, I've moved horizontally a number of times and I love what I do, I feel like I'm in my natural gifts. But it took me a few risks and some uncomfortable jobs that didn't feel like they were worthy of my experience in order to get there.

Lenny RachitskyWhat's a good percentage of your work life that should be in gifts and things that energize you versus, okay, I actually got stuff.

Rachel LockettMy litmus test is 80%, that's the goal.

Lenny Rachitsky80%.

Rachel LockettThat's the aspiration. You're always going to have 20% of things you don't love doing. There's just the logistics of getting into the zone that you need to be in. But I really try to push people to think aspirationally, that if you're 80% of the time in your gifts, how much energy you have to give to the world. It's so much more inspiring.

So I want to tell you why I'm passionate about this topic because it actually is how I ended up as an Executive Coach. So 10 years ago, I was working at a small company called Remind, and I was running the UX Research team. And the CEO asked me to move into the Product Manager role for the Core Product team. And I was excited for the opportunity. I had non-technical background, but I thought, "Hey, all these strategists are up there creating the roadmap. I can do that. I know exactly what our users need." So I was excited for this.
I came into the team, there was I think 12 senior engineers, very opinionated, very skeptical, this non-technical PM, but we worked together. And what I did was I listened. I learned what do our users need? What does this team need? What's working and not working? And with-

Rachel LockettWhat does this team need? What's working and not working? And within a month, this team was working well together. They were reviewing each other's code base. They were really disagreeing in a healthy way in our team meetings. They felt more connected to users. And I felt like, "Okay, this rhythm is working." But what I was also doing as I was at home stressing in the middle of the night about the new user experience, I couldn't decide which of the designs to go with. I was always over leveraging our data scientists, and I found myself swirling on decisions that didn't need to have so much stress involved. And one day I went for a walk with my colleague Zach Abrams, and he was a great product manager and he was listening to me ask all these questions about how to sell the vision of what this product would look like in the future.

And he said, "Rachel, you're a zone of genius or your gift is not being a product strategist, but I've watched you over the last few months, and you have gotten the team more motivated than I ever could, and you've influenced the entire executive team behind your ideas, and that's impressive. You're a people person." And at first I was offended. What? You think I don't have the ability to be a great product leader? And yet I sat with what he said, and I knew he was right. Both my parents are therapists. I never wanted to be a therapist. Here I am. I'm basically a work therapist. I love entrepreneurial energy, I love big vision, but I'm a people person.
And I left that, and I realized I love what my coach does. I got trained as a coach. I went into HR leadership. And Zach, who was a gifted product strategist, went on to lead product at Coinbase and BREX and most recently Bridge, which was acquired by Stripe, and he's still my client. And we've watched our journeys over the last decade, and we've both been honing our gifts. Life is more fun when you're in your gifts, and you have more inspiration and capacity to offer the world. So I just want to share that story because it's helpful to be honest with the people you care about when they seem energized and when they seem depleted because sometimes it's a wakeup call for people to really think about what is their spark and to protect it and to feed it.

Lenny RachitskyI love that story because I think most people when they hear this advice and this topic of, "Okay, I am feeling depleted, I'm feeling burnt out," I feel like most people jump to, "Okay, but I can't actually do anything about it. I have a job. I got responsibilities." What I'm getting from this is the most important step is jump to figure out what you actually should be doing. What gives you energy? What your gifts are. It feels like that's the biggest gap for people because once you know that, there are ways to do that. Talk to your manager. "It may not be possible today, but here's where I want to be going. Here's what I want to be spending time on." I love your point you made though about you actually have to be doing well for your manager to listen to you. You can't just be sucking and then like, "Oh, but I want to work on strategy."

Rachel LockettYeah. Well, it's no one else's job to help you live in your gifts. And what I notice in big companies is people are often annoyed or frustrated with their management for not making their job more interesting. It's like, "No, your manager's job is to help you perform in the job you were hired to do. It's your job to navigate your career." So over the arc of your career, how do you match your gifts with the world's needs? And if the world right now is your company, how do you understand the needs enough so that you can apply your strengths to those needs?

Lenny RachitskyThis reminds me, there's a couple of guests I've had on the podcast who did this. They're both founders, so this is specific to founders, but Rahul Vohra at Superhuman, he realized he's not the best executor operations person, so he hired a president that took all that office plate. And then Darmesh, co-founder of HubSpot, he knew from the beginning he didn't want to manage people, so he made a rule with his co-founder, "I will never have reports." And he's the CTO, I believe, and has zero reports, has no one-on-ones.

Rachel LockettYeah. And I think that it's a beautiful thing to recognize that, but then to actually address the needs of those reports also. I think often people know, "Ugh, I don't want to have one-on-ones," but just not having anyone to manage those people is not going to be healthy for your company. So you have to both take your strength seriously and actively manage around your weaknesses.

Lenny RachitskyIs there any maybe last piece of advice on this topic of helping people get to a place where they're feeling much less depleted and just more energized at work?

Rachel LockettI would start small. You don't have to leave your job and redesign your life. You can stop going to the optional things that are exhausting. You can leave space between the things that are depleting that you have to go to outside and go on a 30-minute walk and refuel your tank. Start with tomorrow. What are the three things you're going to do to plug up that gas leak and re-energize your spark? It might even be you love to read and you're going to start reading 30 minutes before you go to sleep every night. It doesn't have to be a dramatic life change, but recognize that only you know what is resonant and what is depleting, and it's your job to take that seriously if you want to show up purposeful and impactful in the world.

Lenny RachitskyI love that advice. I've actually started reading before bed for 30 minutes, and that's been so joyful, like a physical book with a little nightlight.

Rachel LockettI agree. I love a physical book. I have a Kindle, I got all the things, but a physical book on the couch is the best.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, it's just that nightlight is key because sometimes at nighttime you need a night book. So we've been talking mostly so far about individual improvement, how to figure out what you should be working on, just helping learning to coach, things like that. I want to take us up a little level above and talk about team skills, how people get better at working with other people. Something that you are in many ways known for is helping co-founders build better relationships. And in my experience one of the most challenging parts of starting a company is the co-founder relationship. A lot of people don't realize what they're getting into. You're basically getting married to this person in a very high stress situation, and you sometimes don't know much about them.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyAnd then you not working well together is just a huge issue because that all trickles down, and everyone sees it. And when co-founders leave, it's really bad for everyone. So let me just ask you this, what have you found most helpful in helping co-founders build great relationships, stay happy and productive?

Rachel LockettYeah, thanks for asking this. I love working with co-founders because I think your core values as a person come out when they interact with someone else's core values. Conflict, healthy conflict or otherwise, is actually where your core values come out. So it's fascinating to watch people try to do something incredibly hard in the context of someone else's vision, someone else's strengths and weaknesses and navigate that together. So there's so much energy in the co-founder dynamic for me and for co-founders themselves. It's actually something that people don't feel comfortable going to their board about or talking to that many people about because it's a private matter. It's almost like in a marriage you go see a couples' therapist, but you don't tell all your friends that you can't stand your partner, but it keeps you up at night. So it's a really tender, important relationship, and there aren't enough supports for co-founders to navigate it. It's very normal.

In fact, I know you probably know this stat, 65% of startups fail because of co-founder conflict, and co-founders are in a moment where they're trying to build the future for their business, but also trying to build their own livelihood. So there's so much at stake to get along with your co-founder. I think the core at its core, what you need in a healthy relationship is, one, self-awareness. What do I bring into this dynamic, and how am I being experienced by the other person? What does this other person bring into the dynamic, and how am I reacting to that? So the first is just collective awareness about what is our dynamic. I like to use the Enneagram for this, but there's all kinds of tools, self-awareness tools that you can use to give a common language to what is my thing and what is your thing.
A very classic one has to do with roles. CTOs tend to be skeptics. They love facts, they seek knowledge. They want depth of awareness and understanding, and they also like to be self-sufficient. This is a total generalization, but I've seen this pattern over and over again. The CEO is the person who had to sell the vision. They're a person who loves big picture vision strategy. They often are great at influencing others. They love to sell ahead of the reality of what the company's actually built. This creates an inherent tension between blind optimism and skepticism, and it's a dance that these two roles play together. So the first part is knowing the dance you're in, so you're not just stepping on each other's toes blindly.
The second step is actually being conscious about the commitment you're making to your relationship. In a marriage, for example, I talk about co-founder vows and recommitments and renewals because in a marriage you get married, and a lot of times people build a family and then they think, "Oh, the relationship will just continue around each other all the time. We're doing this thing together." But just like couples need a date night, co-founders need time and space to connect with each other to come together and say, "How's this working for you? Are we still aligned on our vision and our strategy? How are we working together? What am I doing that's pissing you off? What are the things that have gone unsaid and that we need to talk about?"
But if you're just in the hustle and bustle of running and scaling your startup, you don't make time for that conversation. So I think it's incredibly important for co- founders to make space for their relationship, whether that's a dinner every other week, whether that's going out to lunch regularly, whether that's just touching base business-wise, but having an in-person quarterly check-in. That space is critical for the health of a co-founder relationship.

Lenny RachitskyOn that second piece, the vows idea is such a good idea. Is that something you actually recommend, here's what I vow to do?

Rachel LockettYeah, here's what I commit to do. So recently I actually wrote an article with First Round, and we created a document to help co-founders think about what to integrate into their check-in. So we put out weekly check-in, monthly check-in and annual and just questions to sit down and ask each other. Active listening skills will come in handy in those conversations, but it's about taking space out of hustling and running the business to think about the business from a like to say, instead of being on the dance floor, you need time on the balcony to look down at what's happening. How are we doing? Is this still working for both of us? And the vows are really about, how are we going to be together? How are we going to show up? What's our culture that we're creating?

Even if you don't want to go through a whole culture exercise early on in building your company, you should have some sense of how you want to show up for each other. How are we going to make decisions? How are we going to deal with conflict? These are things you can go into intentionally and design with your co-founder.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. We're going to link to that post The first step, Enneagram sounds like that's what you recommend, and this is basically a personality profile that a lot of people love.

Rachel LockettI really like the Enneagram. I think you can also simply tell each other, "Here are my strengths. Here's what I see as my weaknesses, and what do you think? Give me some feedback. Do you agree?" And you can do that with each other without any personality assessment. If you want to just be scrappy and have an open connected conversation about, you could even say, what are the gifts I bring and the weaknesses I have, and how will I cover those? How will I lean into my gifts? How will I cover my weaknesses, and how will you? And then I think it's worthwhile having a conversation about, what are the gaps neither of us cover that we're likely going to need as we build this business?

Lenny RachitskyWhat do you recommend people do when they are just like, "Our relationship isn't working great. There's a lot of tension"? All this advice we've been talking about, at the beginning, here's things you can do to set things up for success. Understand what you're good at, what you're bringing to the table. Consciously commit to, here's what I'm going to do, here's what you're going to do. Have these dinners or lunches. I love this metaphor of going out on the balcony and just reflecting on how it's going. So that's all really great. What if you're just already in it and it's really annoying, I don't like this person that much or so much tension constantly. What are a couple things they can do this week, next week?

Rachel LockettCo-founders typically come to me either in this early phase where they want to intentionally build something great and they want to set it up for success. More often co-founders come when they're really frustrated with one another. They feel the tension is palpable. They can't stand it anymore, but they're still really deeply committed to the business so they don't see an out. And they knew that at some point they really loved this cofounder, so they see a possibility of recovering, and that's why they want to go get a coach. I'm going to give you an example of this PR duo running a fierce business scaling really fast. And at one point when they started, you had the visionary who was great at selling business. They were both incredible with PR, and the partner was incredible operationally.

So as the business scaled, one took on a lot more business development and the other took on all the internal things, but was exhausted by all this people management and all of the elements of running a scaled team that she didn't expect to have to do. And when they came, I think both of them weren't sure, can we figure this out? Do we want to just sell this thing? Do we want to keep going? And I think someone said, "End it or send," was what one co-founder said to me. They're coming at this decision point. And what I saw them do is, one, they named current state really well. They were both able to share. We did use a 360. So they got feedback from their teams and then shared it with one another, but they were able to be open and vulnerable in what was working and what wasn't working. Not immediately, but over time.
And they realized they used to love being partners in this work, but as they began to lead different teams, they grew very distant from one another. They were living on opposite sides of the country and actually just coming together and realizing what each other was missing and how lonely it is to lead this scaling company without each other's support and how they actually needed the counterbalance to their strengths and didn't have it was a important start to their healing.
And over our coaching, they turned back towards each other and they created more of a rhythm of how they would get together without me involved. And they ended coaching after our arc feeling renewed and really recommitted. They made some changes on their leadership team to fill their gaps. They also started, I think, meeting once a week virtually, and they started a cadence of getting together in person quarterly. And I don't mean to say that just that time means you're going to heal, sometimes coming together and really grappling. I had one last week where we all came together, we had a great full day in-person discussion about how they were making this co-founder duo, how they were making decisions.
And after that conversation, it was really clear that one of the co-founders was unhappy and didn't appreciate the other one and was not going to change and realized he was a big part of the problem and I think is going to leave the business. But that's still success because it's clarity. You're not muddling in the dark, frustrated, unconscious about the interpersonal dynamics you're in, you're making a choice based on your strengths and what the business needs and this relationship dynamic that you're in to either be in it or to lovingly step out of it.

Lenny RachitskyI love how similar this is to just the marriage, all this stuff. This is the same sort of thing you would do.

Rachel LockettTotally. I mean a marriage, you're building a life with a partner. So the only difference is a marriage is rooted in sexual attraction and love, and that's not the case always in the co-founder dynamic. But I have worked with couples who are also co-founders, but there should be some element of love for your co-founder. In fact, I think that when you work closely with colleagues and you really are able to see their gifts and enable them, you can't help but love them.

Lenny RachitskyThat's a big statement. The other takeaway here is that just get coaching. It feels like that's the solution if things are just not working great. There's only so far you can get just talking.

Rachel LockettIt takes an evolved facilitator, one of the co-founders, being able to hold space for both their frustration and their empathy in a dynamic that is challenging. So outside support is useful. Sometimes it's actually a team member, it's an HR leader. It's the GC who happens to have great people skills. You don't always need a coach, but you need space to be vulnerable, open, and curious. So if you can create that on your own, that's great. I think it's definitely possible.

Lenny RachitskyOutside of the co-founder relationship, do you have any just tactical tips for people to improve their interpersonal skills with just team members, anyone they work with, just people that may struggle like, "Man, I have a hard time with this person. I just have a hard time with a lot of people"?

Rachel LockettFirst of all, people when they want to have a conflict or they want to engage in something that's not working, they come in armored and ready to prove their point. It's natural. You've been thinking about this, perseverating over whether you should mention it. You finally get to the point of engaging, and often there's a misguided view that the goal is to convince the other person that what they're doing is wrong. Actually, the goal of any conflict is to create mutual understanding. So when I go in to have a conversation with, let's say my husband who's not doing his share of the parenting, my goal is to help him understand what I'm struggling with so that he can empathize, see clearly what's happening, and perhaps meet my needs in some way. But it's not for me to prove to him how little he's doing in the house because he might have a totally different story about what's happening.

So I'm going to give you a framework that I like that many of my clients use. It's from Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication. It is a book and a framework. So it's four steps. The first step is observations. So my job is to note what is happening factually. For example, I noticed that in the last three sprint planning meetings, you didn't invite me to those conversations or share with me the roadmap. That's an observation. It's a fact. I could take a picture of it, and no one would argue with it. The next step is feelings. So I'm going to express my feelings without blame. So I felt anxious not knowing what was on the roadmap for the week. I felt confused about whether that meeting happened or not because I wasn't included. So this is me sharing my feelings so the other party can empathize and understand what I'm going through without being defensive.
The third step is needs. What are my universal human needs related to this topic? We all have needs. This is not requiring anything of the other person, just helping them understand my needs that are not met. So I have a need for clarity, I have a need for collaboration, I have a need for connection, whatever that is. And lastly, the step is to make a request. Now, in this model, the request is an olive branch to help the other person meet you and see you. It shouldn't be something that's impossible to do. It should be actually something quite small and easy to achieve for the other person to feel successful in connecting to you and understanding you. So in this case, I might make a request. I'd like to ask you next time you have a sprint planning meeting to include me as optional or to send me the roadmap afterwards that you align on.
Now, the other person doesn't have to meet my request. They might make a counter proposal, but the most important thing of this model in this conversation is that the other person understands what I'm going through and they don't feel reactive so that we can have a mutual conversation about what's going on.

Lenny RachitskyWow. This point about how when you're trying to convince someone of something, when something is going wrong, this point that your goal is not to convince them, that your goal is to have mutual understanding, that just blew my mind, and I think it's going to change my life. Wow.

Rachel LockettLenny, try this with your wife tonight. NVC is a powerful tool, and actually it's very akin to most models that are about connection. The Stanford Business School course that has a T, it's called Touchy Feely that everybody loves.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, we've had Carol on the podcast.

Rachel LockettGreat. Yeah, so Carol Robbins created this movement. There's lit. A lot of founders go to her model that's for founders.

Lenny RachitskyAnd tech.

Rachel LockettAnd this is all about, they talk about a net that you can talk about your feelings and your reaction, but as soon as you cross the net to blaming someone else or making an assumption, they're going to have a defensive response. But you can be incredibly bold and brave if you stay on your side of the net. So this model helps you do that because it's really about sharing your emotions and your needs and making a request without blame.

Lenny RachitskyYeah. So what I was going to say as you were going through this framework is here's me, here's what I saw, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I need. And then now that you have that in context, here's something I'm asking for versus you did this and you're feeling this and you thought this.

Rachel LockettExactly. It also acknowledges that professionals have feelings. I think that we operate in tech. We're supposed to give all of ourselves, all of our time, all of our energy to this endeavor. And it's purely logical. It's not at all true. It's completely emotional. And if we ignore our feelings, they will bubble up, and we will be unconsciously acting from them.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's this implicit power here that if the person cares about you and loves you or values your relationship, knowing that this makes them feel bad will make them want to change. It's not like you need to tell them, "Change this thing. Oh, I didn't realize this made you upset or that you have this need. And now that I know that, okay, now I see why this is important to you."

Rachel LockettThat's exactly right. And sometimes the other person will hear that and have a different story or a different perspective. So they might say, " Okay, I can honor that request," or, "I hear that request, and I hear your feelings, but let me explain what happened for me." And one way you could do that is, are you open to hearing that? So they're able to share their side too. You don't have to just agree with the person's request. As long as you're setting this tone, the other person's more likely to contribute in a way that achieves mutual understanding because once you're vulnerable, they're going to share their vulnerability.

Lenny RachitskyLet me remind folks of the framework. I'm going to try using this. I wish it was a handy acronym off. So the framework is share what you've observed, just the facts of what is happening. Just simply, I saw you didn't close the fridge fully. Your feelings of how that made you feel, the needs that your core human need that drives that feeling, I imagine. And then the request you have of the person.

Rachel LockettYes. And I want to make one note I forgot to say, which is feelings are emotions. So sometimes people say things like, "I feel like you're being a jerk." That's not a feeling, obviously. A feeling is a sensation in your body that results in an emotion. So naming a feeling is actually not easy for technical leaders sometimes. I want to make that point because emotions are what get you to the underlying humanity of connection. Emotions are the key to soliciting empathy.

Lenny RachitskyAre there phrases that are just examples of non-feelings, like using the word "you" in the way you describe a feeling probably is not a good sign?

Rachel LockettExactly. If you can say, "I feel like... " even if you add like or, "I feel that... " you're probably going to add a fact. It should be an emotion word after I feel.

Lenny RachitskySo don't say like, don't say you, don't say that?

Rachel LockettYeah, exactly.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Along this topic, I chatted with a number of clients that have worked with you over the years, and one of the most common themes that they said you help them with is having difficult conversations. And I think we covered actually much of this in what we just talked about, but I'm curious if there's any other advice you have for helping people have difficult conversations. Let me read a quote from one of your clients.

Rachel LockettOh, wow. I love this.

Lenny RachitskySo she said, "Rachel is exceptional at making difficult decisions clear and making it feel possible to get these decisions actualized." Is there anything more-
... these decisions actualized. Is there anything more there for, because difficult conversations are difficult. How do we help people make them less difficult? Any tips?

Rachel LockettYeah. Well, first of all, difficult conversations makes you want to run away. The marketing on conflict is poor, so I want to reframe that. My belief is when we feel internally ambivalent, we have two inner parts at war. And there's something really beautiful and important to pay attention to, there's something to learn, when we have ambivalence. When we are in conflict, something important is at stake. We care deeply about what we're building, about the person that's letting us down. So the reason it's hard, is because there's such an emotional component to it. And there's something to learn from it.

So first, I want leaders who are listening to think, "This is hard, because I have something to learn here, and because it matters. So instead of avoiding it and running away, I'm going to lean into this moment. And I'm going to come out of it not just having solved this dynamic, and not just having said my piece, but having built a skill." The reason I focus on interpersonal dynamics is because the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life. I really believe that. And if you cannot have conflict, you can't have healthy relationships. We are going to disagree with the people we love, or care about, or are building a business with. So first, I just want listeners to reframe ambivalence and interpersonal challenge, think of them as a growth opportunity.
Second, there is always something that we're doing to contribute to the conflict, even if it feels like the other person is insane, and is driving us crazy, and we're the innocent party. So entering any conflict conversation with humility, and curiosity about the other person's experience, is critical to setting the table for a commitment to come out better and stronger. So no model, NVC or otherwise, can fix a person who's coming in rigid and full of blame. I really love the 15 Commitments to Conscious Leaders, I don't know if you know that book, but one of the concepts is about taking a hundred percent responsibility. Not being in the world of blame, being a victim, or being a hero. And I see many leaders, when they're in a challenging interpersonal conflict, being in victimhood, being in blame, or being in hero. "I'm just going to do it for them, and forget it. They're having such a hard time getting this done, I'm just going to do it."
Instead, take responsibility for your part. "What is my piece in making this dynamic happen and how can I address it?"

Lenny RachitskyThat makes me think about, Jerry Colonna was on the podcast, and he has this famous line that I've always remembered. How are you complicit in creating the conditions that you claim you don't want?

Rachel LockettYes, I love that. Love that question.

Lenny RachitskyAnd there's so many, there's three parts to that whole question, I won't get into it. But what you're sharing here is, think about that, figure out how, because your point is, you're always somehow complicit in creating the issue you're complaining about. And use that to help kind of put down the defense of the person like, "Here's what I've contributed to this problem." Do you use the nonviolent communication framework? And I don't know, is that just a general way of trying to have difficult conversations, or is there not a framework?

Rachel LockettYeah, no, I think that's a great framework for when you want to go interact with someone around something that's not working for you. I think typically a difficult conversation arises because some feelings are coming up for you, and you have a need that's not being met. And so, that's the instigator to know, "Okay, I need to talk to this person. We need to clear this up."

For example, I was working with a CEO whose co-founder was constantly undercutting his decisions, and criticizing him. And there was something happening, where they'd gone from being this great dynamic duo, fundraised, hired a few leaders, and then all of a sudden he was getting daggers thrown at him all the time. And it was exhausting, and frustrating, and confusing. That was a time where he used NVC to address, "What is happening, here?" And it turned out that the co-founder was really frustrated with how he was spending his time. He didn't want him to be off selling, he wanted him to be helping him with product vision. And they had a totally different conception of how the CEO should be spending his time.

Lenny RachitskyAwesome. Just remind folks of the NVC framework, because this is the thing that's hard in the moment. Like, "Oh, what should I be saying?" Observe, feelings, needs, request.

Rachel LockettYeah, exactly. And there's a nonviolent communication book, if folks are into the framework, and want to check it out.

Lenny RachitskyPeople need a little... Who was it, you said one of your client's tattooed the vision he had, on-

Rachel LockettYeah.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, there's, let's just get something.

Rachel LockettMaybe don't tattoo NVC.

Lenny RachitskyBecause that may be

Rachel LockettIt doesn't have a good acronym. You could just print it out, and put it right next to your screen, or something-

Lenny RachitskyAll right, okay.

Rachel Lockett... if you want.

Lenny RachitskyNo tattoos. I just want to highlight the first point you made in this answer, of having difficult conversations. And then I have one more question for you. Just this point about, if there's something you're afraid of, that is a sign you should do that. There's a quote I often think of. "The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek." And the advice there is just, the thing you're afraid of is a compass too, the thing you should do. Because there's something important there.

Rachel LockettI love that. Yeah. It's like, "What's important here? What do I have to learn here?" Is a question you can ask yourself when you're avoiding something. I often see this in talent management situations. A CEO has an underperforming COO. They're avoiding a conversation, because they keep getting let down, and actually they kind of know deep down, this is not working out. They don't want to face it. It's too much work. They need to just keep plowing forward.

And when we really take space to think about their feelings and needs, they realize, I ask them, "Would you enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?" Which is the question we always asked at Stripe. And when the answer is no to that, no matter how many difficult conversations you have, this is not going to work. So then you have to take action. And even engaging in the hard conversation, and seeing what happens, can lead you to the clarity that you need to take action on talent that's not working.

Lenny RachitskyThat is a really cool tip. I did not know Stripe operated that way. We had the CTO of Netflix on the podcast, Elizabeth Stone, and this is very much how they operate. They're always asking a question like that. The way you phrased it was, "Would I enthusiastically rehire this person for the same role?"

Rachel LockettExactly. It's very clarifying, because it's binary. People have a physical sense, just like we talked about a full body yes, before? You have a immediate reaction that is honest, to that question, that provides clarity.

Lenny RachitskyAnd the answer isn't, if it's no, it's not, "Fire them." It's, "You need to do something about it." It could be talk to them about it, put them on a performance plan, put them in a different role. It doesn't mean you have to fire them immediately, so it's not necessarily as scary as it sounds, if you say no.

Rachel LockettYeah, I think that also it depends on the stage of business you're in. So I see a lot of companies build a leadership team, and then a year later, the size and stage of their business is dramatically different. And they start to realize, "Oh, the CFO that was really fine back then, is now completely wrong. He should be the controller." Okay, great. So reckon with that. Recognize that in how you're interacting with your current CFO, put out a search. There's many things you can do that aren't firing someone. But in quickly scaling businesses, it's natural that the leadership team's job will change, and that you'll have to make some evolution over time.

Lenny RachitskyAnd I guess it's very important to highlight the importance of operating this way, if you're trying to build a really successful company, is that should be the bar. Is, if you would not enthusiastically rehire this person for this role. If you're trying to build something that's never been built before, and build a company that actually works out really well, you need to really only have people around that are hitting that bar.

Rachel LockettYeah. My perspective, I talked at the beginning about how I'm obsessed with the human side of business building, and my belief is that talent and the environment that you put your talent in is everything. Yes. Building a product and a business is about building something that users need. It's about product market fit, and then the wave you're on. Timing is important. You're going to build a different size business, if you're in a sector that's not growing, than right now, if you're in the middle of AI. True. You're riding a timing wave, and you're solving a core need. But everything besides that is so human. It's about talent, and it's about the environment that you put that talent in. So you need to create the conditions such that your talent can thrive.

Lenny RachitskySuch a simple concept, that I think people overlook, is just everything you do is going to be the people that you have around you, and the environment you create for them to operate. I think your point about when you're doing something difficult, just to close out this element, I love this idea that if it feels hard, think of it as a learning opportunity. I think anyone listening to this is like, "Oh, cool, I'm going to learn something. I'm going to get better." It's such a easier, more motivating way of approaching something that's difficult.

Rachel LockettAnd I want to make a distinction between that and what we talked about earlier, which was, lean into your strengths. Because I don't believe people should suffer through the day grinding, doing work that's depleting. That's not a learning opportunity. Interpersonally, when you're avoiding something, it's because you care about something. Avoiding your emotions is what I want to encourage people against. We have to feel our feelings all the way through, be present to our feelings, and interact with others in a way that acknowledges our feelings. That's what I want to encourage, because actually that's not deadening, that's enlivening. And there's learning there.

Lenny RachitskyA final area I want to spend a little time on is, something that I've heard from everybody that you work with, which is the way that you help them operate. So you just talked about the importance of the people you hire and the environment you create for them. And something that you help leaders do is create a very specific way of operating around a one-page plan, and how that kind of trickles down and just makes everything at a company more effective. Talk about this one-page plan, how you recommend companies operate with this.

Rachel LockettYeah, thanks for asking that question. I think, typically, companies have complicated the process of aligning their vision, their strategy, their goals, and the way people behave with each other, their values. So that all of these things live in different places, are talked about to a different degree, resonate to employees differently. And if you asked anyone at the company, "What are your top three priorities, and how do they relate to the vision?" It's not an easy answer.

So the reason I like the one-page plan concept is, it's simplifying. It's a way for the leadership team to come together and align around, " What are we doing here? What is our role in it? And how do we communicate it, so that the whole company has clarity, and knows how the work they're doing ladders up to our big picture vision that we're all committed to?"
So I actually got this idea of the one-page plan from Alpine Investors. They have something called the People First Operating Rhythm, and they've successfully implemented that at their portfolio companies. And I work in concert with Alpine, so I work with some of their portfolio CEOs. To execute this rhythm. So it's not just about a one-page plan. It puts your vision and your values on the first column, your strategic intentions and your KPIs on the second column, your annual goals on the third, and your quarterly goals on the fourth. So that no matter what you're talking about, in terms of, "What are we doing for the next year, or the next quarter? How do we prioritize?" It's always in tandem with your core KPIs, your strategy, and your vision.
And I love how they instituted that with their portfolio, and I saw the power of it. They've collected some data that their portfolio companies that actually institute the People First Operating Rhythm result in higher returns. So they're very committed to this strategy, and after operating with CEOs in their rhythm, I took some of those ideas and started to help other founders and other leaders with some of the same concepts, in my own way.

Lenny RachitskyWe're going to hopefully link to a template of this one-page plan?

Rachel LockettYeah, sure.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, cool.

Rachel LockettHappy to share.

Lenny RachitskyOkay, so let's do that. And then, what kind of impact do you see from companies starting to operate this way to motivate people to do this?

Rachel LockettYeah. What I see is clarity and alignment. And I also see more connection. So I want to name that it's not just about having a plan, it's about how you create it, how you reflect on it, and how you come together around it to celebrate wins.

So in my opinion, a very under- attended to part of building a business is an operating rhythm. When do you come together to kick off the year, and share your strategy and vision again, and talk about the goals? When do you come together to reflect on what's working and not working, and how do you do that? And in what groups? And are you honest, or are you just kind of doing it as a quick exercise to move on to what's pressing?
So just like I said in co-founder dynamics, a key is to step out of the dance floor and to get onto the balcony. Executive teams leading a complex business need time away from being in the business to work on the business. So around this one-page plan, the reason I like a rhythm, is you can kick off the year with the plan. That's really simple, easy to understand. Everyone can have it accessible and every quarter, you can get together to reflect, "What worked, what didn't work?"
I really like the question, "What's an inconvenient truth?" Air the things that need to be talked about, that no one's talking about because you're too busy. That's the power of combining a simple plan, whether it's one page or not, that aligns you from the top to the bottom, your vision all the way down to your quarterly goals. And a time where you stop, pause, discuss, reflect, have a little spacious energy.
It's not unlike what you said about your own time. You are the executive team. You want a little bit of spacious time to tinker, reflect, create, and come back to the meaningful work you're doing more energized. And leadership teams need that too.

Lenny RachitskyWait, Alpine Investors, Graham Weaver. He was on the podcast.

Rachel LockettI saw that. I saw that.

Lenny RachitskyI love that. Okay, final, final question. I want to take us to AI corner before we get to the very exciting lighting round. I'm going to do kind of a tweaked version. Usually I ask people just, how has AI impacted their work and life? I guess that is the question here, just how has AI changed, I guess coaching, as a coach? But also just, from a client's perspective, how are people using AI to help them in their, I guess life, from a coaching perspective?

Rachel LockettYeah, it's a great question. So as a coach, I use AI in a couple of key ways, that I'm grateful for. One, I use Granola, which I saw you give away to your listeners.
There you go.

So I use Granola to take notes in our session so I can be fully present with my clients, and I can give them a synthesis of what happened and the next steps they committed to after our session. I also use it, I put them in a folder for every client, and so I can look at insights across our work together. What are the deeper things that are happening? What are the patterns that are taking place? I have these in my head, but actually it's a great tool, to see over time. "Oh yeah, we talked about that in our first session. Let's bring that back, because that's what you're struggling with now." So it helps me create the kind of transformation that I want for all my clients.
Secondly, I just use ChatGPT to help me plan my retreats. I run a women's organization, and we have eight retreats a year, and it's a great tool to think expansively about new activities. Once I've gotten the core objectives down, and I have a bunch of ideas about what I want to do, it gives me new creative ideas. So I can put in like, "Here's my objective, here's my goal, here's my audience, here's my last retreat that I ran. I kind of want three new ideas for this session." So it'll give me creative energy that I otherwise would need to get together with other coaches to discuss. And I do that, too.
Finally, I'm experimenting with AI in a way to support my clients between sessions. So I've gotten some feedback from my clients that they would like more interaction between our sessions, and they're always allowed to email me, or text me. I'm available to them. But I think they want to be really respectful of my time, and so some people do reach out and ask me questions, and other people wait for our session.
So I'm curious about the future of coaching, how in between sessions, clients can get access to more of an AI support, where the bot has all of their context, their development plan that we create at the beginning. So that's their goals, for our work together, how they want to grow. Some of my core frameworks, and my beliefs, and my training. And the Granola notes from all of our sessions, so that they can access between, just some extra spot support. They're going into this conversation, how should they approach it? They're anxious about this team meeting. How can they make the most of it? More tactical support. I see personal coaching as still critical for, "What is your vision of your life? How do you want to shift your core behavior to align with that vision?" But then, AI can play a real helpful role in between, on the tactics.

Lenny RachitskyThat is super cool. So that's something you already do, where they have access to this kind of GPT-

Rachel LockettIt's something I'm building right now.

Lenny RachitskyYou're building, that is-

Rachel LockettMy clients don't have that yet.

Lenny RachitskyOkay. That is great. That is a really good idea. It's not replacing coaching and therapists, let's say, but it's adding a lot more in-between time where you could just talk to us, based on everything you've talked about, all the frameworks that you use. That is extremely cool. All right. There's a billion-dollar company coming.

Rachel LockettI don't want to build that.

Lenny RachitskyIt's not your zone of genius.

Rachel LockettExactly.

Lenny RachitskyRachel, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with, before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Rachel LockettWhat I want to share is that the world is getting more lonely. There's a lot of research on this, but it's also obvious in my coaching sessions, that people feel more alienated from one another. And actually, building businesses is an inherently human endeavor. So I am a fan of this AI boom, I appreciate that we have more technology at our fingertips than ever before. But I want to encourage listeners to think of themselves as leaders who bring humans together to self-actualize, and that they have to actively overcome the default state, which is blind, grind, and loneliness. So I think this is a call to action for your listeners, to connect with the people around them, lead healthier teams, create environments where connection is inevitable. And that they will have more fun, and build better businesses, because of that.

Lenny RachitskyWhat a beautiful way to end it. With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

Rachel LockettI am ready.

Lenny RachitskyFirst question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Rachel LockettOne of them I said before, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders. And I love Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett.

Lenny RachitskyI love that book, too. People don't talk about that book enough. Next question. Favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

Rachel LockettOh, God. I just went to KPop Demon Hunters with my daughter. It's so embarrassing, but that's what we dressed as for Halloween, like everyone else in the world.

Lenny RachitskyI have not seen that. I hear everyone talking about it. I am going to try to avoid it, I think. Next question. Favorite product you have recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be a gadget, could be clothes.

Rachel LockettI really love Loom.

Lenny RachitskyAmazing.

Rachel LockettI've been recording trainings on Loom for some of my clients that are, it's a scaled holding company, so I'm able to scale training in a really human, connected way.

Lenny RachitskyDo you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, in work or in life?

Rachel LockettI have a quote that is on my desk. And I love it. Ready? "If you can see your path laid out in front of you, step by step, it's not your path. Your own path, you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path." That's a Joseph Campbell quote.

Lenny RachitskyBeautiful. Final question. You've got two kids, you said. Do you have any favorite children's books that you most love reading to them, that they've loved most?

Rachel LockettOh my gosh. So my daughter is really into Roald Dahl. I love Roald Dahl, because he's completely irreverent, and he has a crazy imagination. So we've been reading Witches, Matilda, all of his books. And both my kids love it. So, they're five and seven.

Lenny RachitskyHave you seen the Wes Anderson stories of his stories, where he takes -

Rachel LockettSome of them, yeah. They're great.

Lenny RachitskyYeah, they're so amazing. Oh my God. And it's like Roald Dahl is like, I think it's personifying him. He's like a character in the story.

Rachel LockettYeah, he's a character, from what I hear about his life.

Lenny RachitskyRachel, this was incredible. I feel like we've very much accomplished what I set out to do, which is just give people all this advice that they never have access to that, costs tens of thousands of dollars. I think we're going to help a lot of people improve their lives and their careers. Thank you so much for being here.

Rachel LockettAbsolutely. Thanks for having me.

Lenny RachitskyI almost forgot to ask you two final questions. Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe consider working with you? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Rachel LockettYeah, find me at lockettcoaching.com, and how can listeners be useful? Listeners should turn towards each other, build great relationships, and send CEOs and co-founders my way if they need coaching.

Lenny RachitskyThank you so much for being here.

Rachel LockettThanks for having me. Take care, Lenny.

Lenny RachitskyBye, everyone.

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

Lenny Rachitsky当客户来找你时，你觉得最妨碍他们成为好领导者的那个核心缺口，通常是什么？

Rachel Lockett大多数领导者，尤其是技术背景的领导者，会默认自己必须随时有答案。很多人一路往上走，就是因为他们一直都很靠谱、很能扛事、也是房间里最聪明的人。但真正优秀的领导者知道，如果你总是在给建议、总是在给答案，你其实不是在帮助团队解决难题，而是在训练团队把所有难题都丢给你。

Lenny Rachitsky难谈的话题之所以难，就是因为真的很难。那我们怎么帮大家把这种对话变得没那么难？

Rachel Lockett我们身处科技行业，总觉得应该把自己的全部时间、全部精力都投入这件事里，而且这件事应该是完全理性的。其实根本不是。它非常情绪化。职业人士也有情绪。很多人一进入冲突场景，脑子里想的是“我要证明我是对的”。但这是个误区。冲突真正的目标，不是说服对方“你错了”，而是建立彼此的理解。

Lenny Rachitsky你也讲讲，你这些年在帮助科技公司的领导者避免 burnout 这件事上，都学到了什么？

Rachel Lockett当一个人在做自己擅长、也真正有天赋的事时，他的能量就是会更多。我们每个人在发挥天然优势的时候，状态都会更好。但帮你活在自己天赋区里，这件事不是别人该替你做的。我在大公司里经常看到，很多人会因为工作不够有意思而对管理层心生不满。其实不是这样的。你经理的职责，是帮助你把你被雇来做的这份工作做好；而规划自己的职业路径，是你自己的责任。

Lenny Rachitsky这里面最厉害的一点在于，它真的能让你的生活变得更好。

Rachel LockettLenny，我们直接试试吧。你跟我讲一个你现在正在卡住的挑战。

Lenny Rachitsky我最近最挣扎的事情，其实就是……今天的嘉宾是 Rachel Lockett。她是一位高管教练，也曾长期在 Pinterest 和 Stripe 负责人力相关工作。现在她主要帮助科技公司的 CEO、创始人和管理者，处理“怎么做领导”这件事里的两大面向：一方面是情绪智能、积极智能、韧性和勇气；另一方面是愿景与战略、优先级、以及如何打造一个既互相信任又真正负责的团队。过去这些年，我已经从很多上过节目的朋友那里听过她很多次了。这次对话非常强，里面全是能直接拿来用的建议、技巧和框架，不只是能让你成为更好的领导者，也会让你成为一个更完整的人。我们还现场做了几段实时 coaching，来展示 Rachel 的方法。你会看到，我在这次聊天里也有不少当场顿悟。
在正式开始前，我之前问过你，希望大家从这次对话里带走什么。我特别喜欢你的回答，所以想请你直接再说一遍。你希望听众从接下来的这段聊天里获得什么？

Rachel Lockett说真的，我希望大家能意识到，商业建设里“人的这一面”不仅影响巨大，而且其实很有趣，也没那么难上手。用一些简单工具就能开始。所以我希望通过这次对话，产品负责人、工程负责人、创始人都能更有力量，也更愿意去感知身边的人、理解他们。

Lenny Rachitsky所以你的意思其实是，如果你在“怎么和人打交道”这件事上感到吃力，不管是做产品、带团队还是做公司，这些问题都是有解的，你是可以学会的。

Rachel Lockett对，完全可以做到。而且这其实本来就是更自然的状态。领导者本来就会关心和自己共事的人，也本来就希望自己能赋能周围的人。只是我们的世界太忙了，待办事项一层叠一层，那种紧迫感会让你忽略眼前真实的人。可如果你真的理解你身边的人才，并且营造出一个能让他们发挥出来的环境，你的业务自然会更好。

Lenny Rachitsky我觉得对很多人来说，最难的一步不只是知道这件事“有方法可学”，而是要足够脆弱、足够诚实地去承认自己需要帮助。比如承认“也许我并不是个很好的 manager”，这件事并不好受。

Rachel Lockett对，寻求帮助本来就需要一点脆弱感。但我也知道，你的听众其实都很投入成长这件事。很多上你节目的人，几十年都在认真做自我提升。我正好想讲一个我客户的故事，他也特别喜欢你的播客。上周我才和他聊过。我已经跟他合作 10 年了，他就是那种非常能代表“持续成长”这件事的人。

我刚开始和他合作时，他还只是 Coinbase 的一线工程经理。我们当时聊的是：你是谁、你的优势是什么、你更大的“为什么”是什么。他跟我说，他一直有一个梦想，想有一天发起一个全球性的 movement。他特别在意“建立社区”，也相信如果自己想为这个世界带来更多可能性，路径就是先在身边建立起强而有力的共同体。后来这 10 年里，他一直在打磨自己的领导力。某个阶段，他甚至在手臂上纹了一个纹身，是一轮太阳和一片红杉林，提醒自己那些核心优势和人生使命。你猜他现在在做什么，Lenny？

Lenny Rachitsky干得风生水起。

Rachel Lockett不只是风生水起。

Lenny Rachitsky[听不清 00:08:02] vision。

Rachel Lockett他现在在为 Coinbase 运营一个社区，一个全球性的社区，叫 Base 和 Base app。

Lenny Rachitsky哇。

Rachel Lockett它已经是全球最大的以太坊二层网络之一，里面是一整个创作者和开发者社区，而他现在特别开心，甚至比以前任何时候都更享受这件事。所以我想说的是，那些真正追求卓越、也想创造影响力的人，如果他们愿意重新靠近自己的天赋，回到自己的使命感里，他们完全可以一边产生影响，一边过得更有乐趣。

Lenny Rachitsky这个故事也让我再次意识到，为什么我这么喜欢做这样的对话。因为我们接下来要聊的很多东西，通常只会出现在很小很小的房间里，只有很有钱的人才接触得到。很多人一生要花几万、几十万美元，才能听到这些内容。我特别喜欢的一点是，我们现在可以把这些经验分享给所有人，让大家都从你接触过的那些优秀领导者身上学到东西。所以我特别期待往下聊。我最想先切进去的一个点，其实就是我之前问你的那个问题：客户来找你时，最阻碍他们成为优秀领导者的那个差距到底是什么？你当时的回答，大意是他们得学会什么时候该用 coaching，什么时候该直接告诉别人怎么做。能不能展开讲讲，你为什么觉得这件事这么重要？你又是怎么帮助大家练出这个能力的？

Rachel Lockett我觉得大多数领导者，尤其是技术背景出身的领导者，都默认自己必须一直有答案。很多人之所以能一路升上来，就是因为他们一直都很稳、很可靠、也是团队里最聪明的人。但当你开始带一个高速增长的公司时，你很快就会发现，自己掌握的上下文反而比身边很多人都少。你过去那套工作方式会逐渐失灵，因为你已经不可能再深入掌握每一个问题。所以我见过各种阶段的领导者，从一线经理，到带 8000 人公司的高管，都会卡在同一个问题上：什么时候我真的必须给答案？什么时候我没有答案时，还可以有别的做法？

真正优秀的领导者知道，如果你总是给建议、总是直接给答案，你其实不是在培养团队去解决难题，而是在训练他们把所有难题都带来找你。Coaching 是另一条路。它能把团队成员的聪明才智真正激发出来，而且对他们来说也更有动力。coaching 当然是可以学会的，不然硅谷也不会有那么多教练了。但你并不需要像职业高管教练那样去做 coaching。你只需要在别人带着难题来找你时，把自己的状态从“立刻给答案”切换成“先好奇一点”，创造一点空间，帮他们自己把问题想明白。

Rachel Lockett当然，有些时候直接给建议就是对的。比如事情很紧急，或者来找你的人本身还不具备解决这件事的能力，这时候你就该直接帮他、明确指路。但很多领导者会过度使用这一套，总觉得那些明明已经是领域专家、也是自己亲手招进来的人，还是需要自己替他们把问题解掉。所以我觉得，让听众知道 coaching 其实是另一种选择，很有价值。我也可以顺手教大家几个最基础、马上就能用起来的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky好，我特别想学。你一说这个，我就想起一篇很有名的《哈佛商业评论》文章，可能是 30 年前的吧，讲的是“背上的猴子”。你知道那篇吗？

Rachel Lockett你多讲一点，我感觉我知道。

Lenny Rachitsky好，我们到时候贴出来。它的核心意思是，作为领导者，别人总会把自己背上的猴子往你身上塞。他们会说：“这个猴子已经把我折腾坏了，我不知道怎么办。来，给你，你来喂它、照顾它、帮它搞清楚它到底要什么。”而领导者真正该做的，是把那只猴子留在对方背上，同时帮助他自己想明白怎么处理它。其实这和你刚才讲的是一回事。

Rachel Lockett对，这个比喻特别好。我很喜欢。有时候领导者在没有答案时，会下意识现场编一个答案出来。别人带着问题来找你，你就会本能地想帮忙。但最好的帮助方式，恰恰是很多领导者不太擅长的：先去感受情境。这个人到底需要什么？他具体卡在哪儿？然后用这些问题把他带到能自己解决问题的位置。

Lenny Rachitsky那我们就来讲讲，怎么把这个能力练好。不过在这之前，你刚才说有些时候确实应该直接告诉别人怎么做。一个判断标准是，对方暂时没有这个能力。除此之外，还有没有别的启发式判断？比如说，哪些场景下你就应该直接给答案？

Rachel Lockett有的。比如这件事很紧急，而且你心里已经非常明确知道自己想推动的答案是什么。这时候就别假装 coaching，也别把它变成一个“猜我在想什么”的游戏。那不是适合 coaching 的时机。如果你确实知道正确路径，也确实希望对方按这个方向去做，而且你还希望他是带着动力去做，那就直接给建议，帮他看清路径。但大多数领导者都会在这种模式上用力过猛。所以我想分享的是，也许 Lenny，我可以先教你两个我认为最基础的 leader coaching 技能。

Lenny Rachitsky来吧，我很想学。

Rachel Lockett今天晚上你回家就能拿去用，不管是对你太太……

Lenny Rachitsky她一定会很喜欢。

Rachel Lockett……还是对任何跟你一起协作的人。

Lenny Rachitsky来吧。

Rachel Lockett也希望听众们也能直接用起来。

Lenny Rachitsky开始吧。

Rachel Lockett好，第一个技能，主动倾听。Lenny，你大概率本来就挺会听人说话的，毕竟这是你吃饭的本事，你每天都在听播客嘉宾讲话。不过我不知道你有没有看过《搏击俱乐部》，里面有句很经典的话：“大多数人并不是在听，他们只是在等轮到自己说。”

Lenny Rachitsky太对了。

Rachel Lockett这在科技圈特别普遍。优秀的领导者会反过来做。他们进入一个房间时，能看到那个房间里的“大象”，也就是那些大家都感受到、但没人说出口的东西；他们能把这些东西点出来，也敢问那些真正能推动协作发生的难问题。其实“听”是分三个层次的。第一层叫内部倾听。比如你正在跟我讲一个问题，但我脑子里想的是：这件事对我意味着什么？我完全被自己的内心独白占满了。这就是第一层。大多数人平时都是在很匆忙的状态里，以第一层方式在生活。第二层叫聚焦式倾听。也就是你在说话，而我能复述你说了什么。我在听你表达出来的内容，这通常就是一次还不错的一对一里会发生的事：我们围绕你的话，一起解决问题。

第三层叫全局倾听。也就是我听的不只是你说出来的字面意思，而是你话语背后在传递什么。我会看见你的肢体语言，会留意你的语气，也知道你所处的上下文。因为我是在理解“你整个人正在传递什么”，所以我甚至能比你本人更早地反映出一些你还没完全意识到的东西。真正优秀的领导者，在影响他人、销售、传递愿景，尤其是在做 coaching 时，都会进入这种第三层倾听。你想不想试一下？

Lenny Rachitsky来，试试。

Rachel Lockett好，那我给你示范一次第三层倾听。我先问你一个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky好，来吧。感觉有点危险。

Rachel Lockett你刚才说过，你是个爸爸。

Lenny Rachitsky对。

Rachel Lockett做爸爸是什么感觉？

Lenny Rachitsky哇，做爸爸是什么感觉？很神奇。很多方面来说，这是我这辈子做过最棒的事。我特别喜欢。但它也确实很有挑战，比如怎么设边界，什么时候该让孩子去做他特别想做的事，什么时候又要直接说“不”，让他哭一会儿。这是我最近一直在面对的。基本上别人跟你说过的那些感受都是真的，但有一点他们讲少了，就是快乐其实高得多，高得多。因为大家总爱讲那些辛苦、疼痛和挑战。

Rachel Lockett对，而且我注意到，你一讲到“做爸爸”这件事，一开始整个人在椅子上有点扭动，好像在想“哇，这问题可真大”。你先是上下看了看，也有点躲开了我的视线。我感觉你是真的很爱做爸爸，但同时这件事也真的很难、很累。我从你的回答里听到了两件事：一方面是巨大的快乐，另一方面是那种必须睡眠训练、必须让孩子失望、还要处理各种挑战性行为时的不舒服。

Lenny Rachitsky说得太准了。被这样理解，感觉特别好。你显然不只是听到了我说的话，这真的是一个非常好的主动倾听示范。

Rachel Lockett被这样“看见”，是什么感觉？

Lenny Rachitsky感觉特别好。真的会觉得自己被听见了。而且不是那种简单复述我刚刚的话，而是你听到了我话语下面那一层东西，抓到了核心和更大的图景。

Rachel Lockett对，主动倾听里会带有一种情绪连接，而刚才这整件事连一分钟都不到。所以我很想让听众理解的是：主动倾听不等于你要给团队里的每个人都安排一场一小时的 coaching session，没人有那个时间。但即便只是用你本来就已经在投入的那点时间，只要你真正把注意力放到对方身上，用一种对他来说很少见、很完整的方式去听，你就更容易看见他话语底下的情绪。这对激发团队动力、也帮助大家看清眼前局势底层到底发生了什么，都非常有用。

Lenny Rachitsky我觉得这里面很有力量的一点，是换一种方式把对方的话复述回来。你刚才其实也在暗示这一点。我以前会觉得，这听上去像一种很容易被看穿的小技巧。但哪怕我明知道你是在认真听我、是在向我展示主动倾听，被别人把自己刚说过的话重新听回来，感觉还是非常好。它的力量很大，而且很细腻。

Rachel Lockett对，说得很好。这里面有一部分是对我听到的内容做口头上的整合，这属于第二层聚焦式倾听；另一部分，则是把我感受到的情绪也镜像回来。

Lenny Rachitsky情绪。

Rachel Lockett对，甚至包括一些我在猜测的东西。我可以说：“我是这样理解的，对吗？” 你也可以回答：“不，其实我对做爸爸这件事的挑战并不纠结，我只是特别快乐。” 这样一来，我更明白你在什么位置，你自己也会更明白。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。所以这是 coaching 的一个核心技能：主动倾听。

Rachel Lockett对，这是第一个。第二个技能，是提出有力量的问题。所谓 powerful questions，就是我真的对“到底发生了什么”保持好奇，而且这件事本来就不只有一个标准答案。一个有力量的问题，会帮你获得新的洞察，把你带到一个原来没有看见的解决方案集合里。但它不是诱导式提问，我不是想把你带向我预设好的那个答案。那就不算 powerful question。所以我很喜欢给领导者一个简单工具：四类能帮助你打开洞察的问题。

我常用的是 GROW 模型。GROW 其实就是四类问题。G 是 goal，也就是目标：成功长什么样？你真正想要的结果是什么？凡是帮助对方定义理想结果、最好场景的问题，都属于这一类。R 是 reality，也就是现实：你现在卡在哪？眼下的挑战是什么？你已经试过什么？O 是 options，也就是选项：我们把你面前可能存在的路径展开一点，你到底有哪些选择？可以走哪些不同的路？W 是 way forward，也就是下一步：你接下来准备怎么做？听起来很简单，实际上它也确实很简单。只要你愿意花一点时间认真听，再问出其中任意一类问题，团队里的人通常都会很珍惜这种被留出来的空间。他们往往能因此想到之前没想过的选项，并带着一个明确的下一步离开。

Lenny Rachitsky我复述一下，看我理解得对不对。也就是说，有人背着那只“猴子”来找你，说我现在有个问题要解决，比如我团队里有一部分人没把事情做好，或者某个功能效果不行之类的。那第一步，先听，而且是认真地听；把你听到的内容、包括对方的情绪反映回去。然后开始提问：这件事的成功长什么样？目标到底是什么？也就是你想在这里达成什么结果。第二个，是现在的现实情况是什么，今天到底发生了什么。第三个，是选项有哪些。所以这是你在问他：你觉得有哪些路可以走？

Rachel Lockett对，你接下来可以往前走的路径有哪些？

Lenny Rachitsky你下一步可以做什么。然后这整个过程应该是比较自然流动的，不是死板地一二三四这样走，对吧？

Rachel Lockett对。

Lenny Rachitsky不过最后总归还是会落到，好，那下一步是什么？你准备怎么做？

Rachel Lockett完全正确。而且这四类问题不一定要按顺序来，它们只是四种不同的问题类型。

Lenny Rachitsky明白了。

Rachel Lockett所以有时候，来找你的人其实对自己想要什么已经非常清楚了，这一点你也看得出来。那你就没必要再花时间追问“目标是什么”。这时更值得深入的，可能是他到底卡在了哪里。很多人一开始讲现实处境、讲自己被什么绊住，讲着讲着自己就会意识到：哦，原来我卡住不是因为事情本身太难，而是因为那个跨部门合作伙伴一直在挡我，而且我跟他几乎没有建立关系。也许我真正该做的，是去约他聊一聊，坦白说出我卡在哪，看看能不能把这个结打开。所以很多时候，光是给人一个把这些话讲出来的空间，对他们帮助就已经非常大了。

Lenny Rachitsky这里其实隐含着一个前提，就是很多人本来就知道答案，或者至少有能力慢慢走到那个答案那里去，他们只是需要一点点推动。

Rachel Lockett对。coaching 成立的前提，本来就是你相信眼前这个人其实掌握了足够的上下文，也有能力把自己的问题解出来。只有在这种情况下，你才适合用 coaching。如果一个人确实需要你的明确指导，比如他跑来问你：“我想把公司带上市，而你做过这件事，能不能一步一步告诉我当年是怎么做的？” 那就不是适合 coaching 的时候了。

Lenny Rachitsky那就又引出一个问题了：如果对方最后得出了一个很糟糕的结论怎么办？你心里想的是“这也太离谱了”。这种时候，什么时候该跳出来说一句：“要不要换个思路试试？”

Rachel Lockett对，这个问题很好。如果你对对方说出来的东西有非常强烈的负面反应，当然没必要装作没听见、也没必要硬憋着。我的做法通常是先带着好奇去问：“你跟我讲讲，你是怎么走到这个结论的？因为我听到这里时，自己的反应是这样的。” 也就是说，你既诚实，也保持好奇。还有一点要分清：管理者或领导者语境下的 coaching，和高管教练做的那种正式 coaching，并不是一回事。你是这个人的 manager，你要对他的结果负责。你不是在给他开一场一小时的教练会谈，而是在“给建议”之外，再多用一个工具。你只是在原本的一对一、会议、日常沟通里，多留出一点点空间，也许只多 15%，去问一些开放式问题。

Lenny Rachitsky我特别喜欢一句话，就是“帮我理解一下”。我以前有个 manager 这句话就用得特别好。你能明显感觉到他是在认真地说：“帮我理解一下，你这部分思路是怎么想的。”

Rachel Lockett对。而且当你带着好奇，而不是一上来就把别人的想法拍死时，你其实是在帮他思考。你不是在让对方意识到“如果不来找你请教，我就一定会搞砸”，而是在帮他建立提问能力，也建立起更健康的怀疑精神。所以，当你的下属看世界的方式和你不一样时，这种对话总是很有价值。对方之所以会冒出一个在你看来很糟糕的主意，背后一定有原因。而真正的学习，往往就发生在这里。

Lenny Rachitsky而且也有可能最后发现，错的人其实是你。你会突然意识到：哦，原来他的解法更好，我现在明白了。

Rachel Lockett对，这种事在我做人才相关讨论时经常发生。因为我以前是 HR business partner 出身，现在合作的很多对象又是 CEO，他们经常在搭自己的领导团队。我会非常强调，对人才一定要有足够严格的标准，因为如果你手上真的是一支 A+ 阵容，你就能做出很厉害的事。有时候他们会提出一个想法，比如某个人显然已经不适合现在这个岗位了，他们却会说：“也许我再等六个月，到时候再聊。” 这类问题上我其实有很强的观点，我不会轻轻带过。但我会先问：“你帮我理解一下，为什么你觉得这样做是个好主意？” 然后我会继续追问。如果最后他们还是没走到一个我认同的判断上，我也会很坦白地说出我的看法，同时依然尽量让他们自己把问题真正解明白。

Lenny Rachitsky如果想把这条建议彻底讲透，你能不能给大家一个特别具体的例子？

Rachel Lockett可以。我讲一个客户的例子，我们就叫他 Jeff 吧。他在经营一家 AI 公司，同时实际上也在扮演 head of product 的角色。那时候他手下的工程师和设计师越来越多，客户也涨得很快，他开始感到彻底被压垮。于是他来找我，我们开始一起做 coaching。很快他就意识到，几乎每一个业务决策、产品决策，最后的瓶颈都卡在他这里。他自己也越来越烦，因为他明明很希望团队能有更多主人翁意识，但经过几轮 coaching 后，他发现，问题其实是他一直以来都在训练团队：任何决策都来找我。

后来他决定把团队拆成几个 squad，让小规模的工程、产品和设计小组分别负责不同方向。对于一个正在扩张的小型创业公司来说，这其实是很常见的一步。只是当时他还没有条件给每个小组都配齐工程经理和产品负责人，所以某种程度上，这一步是被现实逼着提前做的。他同时也意识到，自己必须改变和每个项目 tech lead 的互动方式，不然他们不可能真的接住责任。于是我们重点投入在一件事上：重新把系统搭起来。比如每两周做一次产品评审；每个小组都围绕共同设计出来的清晰 KPI 推进；接下来的一个季度里，他把自己的角色从“所有事都由我拍板”，切换成“以 coaching 为主”。他会在 check-in 里认真提问，围绕 KPI 对齐方向，问事情进展如何、卡点在哪里。上周我刚和他开过一次 session，变化真的非常明显。他整个人都更有能量了。他说：“这些 squad 现在推进速度快多了，团队也明显更有主人翁意识、更有动力。” 而他自己终于有时间把头抬起来，开始规划 2026 年……

Rachel Lockett……也终于有时间把注意力放回到 2026 年的规划上，把自己的时间花在最适合自己的位置上，也就是产品、愿景和战略。这算是一个比较宏观的例子，能说明当领导者从“事事亲自解题”切换到“通过 coaching 让别人长出来”之后，会带来什么样的变化。

Lenny Rachitsky这个例子太好了，也特别能说明这件事真正厉害的地方：你的生活质量会直接变好。因为别人开始能接住事情了，不会所有事都来找你。很多时候你只是更认真地听、更好地问几个问题，整个局面就会改善很多，很多事情都会变。

Rachel Lockett没错。

Lenny Rachitsky你身边的人也都会变得更强。

Rachel LockettLenny，我们来真的试一次吧。

Lenny Rachitsky好，试试。

Rachel Lockett你跟我讲一个挑战吧。可以是生活里的，也可以是工作里的。总之，就是一件你现在确实在挣扎的事。

Lenny Rachitsky没错。但我也想补一句：它同时又是我能想象到最棒的工作之一，非常有成就感、也非常满足。我几乎想不出还有什么是我更愿意做的了。

Rachel Lockett嗯。

Lenny Rachitsky所以我觉得这一点很重要。

Rachel Lockett非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky就是那颗《夺宝奇兵》里的滚石，一直在后面追着我跑。

Rachel Lockett对，我能同时感觉到你对这份工作的感激，也能感觉到你和这件事之间的深度共鸣。可与此同时，我也听见你在问：为什么我明明是在做自己热爱的事，却总感觉像在拼命求生？

Lenny Rachitsky这么说也没错。那颗滚石真的快把我压扁了。

Rachel Lockett对，那颗《夺宝奇兵》里的滚石正朝你滚过来。

Lenny Rachitsky天啊。

Rachel Lockett那其实就是我们每个人都会有的战或逃反应。

Lenny Rachitsky也是，也是。

Rachel Lockett好，谢谢你愿意这么坦诚地把这件事讲给我，也讲给听众听。我想问你：如果是理想状态，会长什么样？比如说六个月后，你依然在运营这门你亲手做出来的漂亮生意，但你的感受已经不一样了。那时会发生什么？
好。那“更多空闲时间”对你来说意味着什么？我听得出来，你对高质量产品和高质量输出有很深的执念。但与此同时，你也很渴望自己在这些重要的事情之外，能多一点玩心、多一点伸缩空间。
明白。那对你来说，“探索”和“折腾”为什么这么重要？

Lenny Rachitsky因为以我现在做的工作来说，我必须始终站在变化前面。我不能只是高高坐在云端发表评论。我得真正理解事情是怎么运转的，什么有效、什么没效，什么是真的、什么只是噱头。所以我得尽可能待在一线，贴着真实世界看现在到底发生了什么，而不只是不断生产内容。

Rachel Lockett明白。你的语速现在明显快起来了。我甚至能从你说话的节奏里，听到一种“我已经落后了”的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky这就是很到位的 listening 了。

Rachel Lockett有意思的是，你刚刚说到“探索”和“折腾”的时候，最开始语气其实是很松弛的。那是件很好玩的事。你天生就很好奇，会从里面长出新的洞察。但后面我又听到你说：“这也是我保持领先的方式，我必须这么做，才能觉得自己是了解局势的。” 你怎么理解这两者之间的差别？

Lenny Rachitsky对，对。这其实就是同一枚硬币的两面。还有另外一个因素……不过先回答你这个问题吧。我觉得这两件事都是真的。我也说不好。最开始我之所以做这件事，就是因为它真的太有趣了、太好玩了。就是那种：“现在发生了什么？未来会往哪走？”

Rachel Lockett嗯。

Lenny Rachitsky这里有建议，这里有很多能帮助你把工作做得更好的方法。所以我现在依然很喜欢它。只是我能花在这一部分上的时间变少了，更多时间变成了在那台内容机器上跑：内容、内容、内容，一直往前推。还有一点我刚刚甚至都没提，就是我也想多陪陪我儿子和我太太。要是能更自由一点，想出去做点什么就能去做，那会很好。虽然我们现在已经有不少这样的时刻了，但再多一点当然更好。

Rachel Lockett明白。所以我听到的目标，其实并不是和今天彻底不同。你想保住现在这种高质量输出，但同时也想给探索、折腾，以及和你最在乎的人好好相处，留出更多空间。

Lenny Rachitsky对。你这么一反映，我脑子里更清楚了。也许可以这么说：如果一切都还能保持现在这么好，但我能多出 25% 的自由时间，那就很理想。可我现在的问题是，有时候我真的挤出了一点时间，结果转头又把它塞满了新的项目和机会。问题就在这儿。

Rachel Lockett对，这里面有一种惯性，就是总想保持高速前进，总想抓住眼前冒出来的机会。

Lenny Rachitsky对，对。

Rachel Lockett好，那这就很自然地进入下一个问题：你现在有哪些做事方式，恰恰在妨碍你拥有那 25% 的空余时间？

Lenny Rachitsky就是会答应更多事情。比如我突然发现，哎，我这会儿好像有点空，那要不就接这个 talk 吧，要不再答应那件事吧。所以每次一感到一点自由，我就会马上想：“那我还可以再做那个。” 然后我就又给自己加码了。

Rachel Lockett那你这种不断答应新事情的模式，给你带来了什么好处？

Lenny Rachitsky老实说，好处不算大。

Rachel Lockett但它肯定还是在某些地方服务了你，不然你不会一直这么做。

Lenny Rachitsky嗯。

Rachel Lockett那它到底给了你什么收益？

Lenny Rachitsky这得看具体是什么事。其实我已经有一条原则了：基本不做演讲、不太去别人的播客、也尽量不参加活动，因为我发现这些事通常给我带来的收获不大，反而会打断我本来能做的更重要的事。所以我已经给自己设了很多“拒绝那些对我没帮助的事”的规则。但即便这样，我还是会时不时松动，还是会答应一些东西。

Rachel Lockett这其实已经很聪明了。

Lenny Rachitsky所以就像你说的，偶尔多接一点事，确实也有它的价值。只是最后，我又把自己搞回到过劳状态里去了。

Rachel Lockett对，我听到的是一种模式感。哪怕你已经给自己立了规矩，也对这些边界有点自豪，但你还是会很自然地打破它，或者又用别的事情把空出来的位置重新填满。

Lenny Rachitsky没错，就是这样。

Rachel Lockett好。所以你某种程度上是被这种“做更多、接更多”的惯性绑住了。这在我们的世界里其实太常见了，我猜绝大多数听众也都会有共鸣。我们就是泡在这样的汤里生活的，所以更需要有意识地管理自己身边的输入。

那我们来看看，你眼前到底有哪些可选项。你刚刚已经提到一个自己试过的办法：把那些你不想再做的事列出来，也就是你想明确说“不”的那些东西，然后认真执行、坚持住。除此之外，你还能做些什么，帮助自己守住那块神圣的 25% 空间？

Rachel Lockett嗯。

Lenny Rachitsky这件事当时对我来说已经很大了。问题在于，我现在还是会每周都想：“哦，这个我想写；哦，这周不能什么都不发，我得发点东西。” 所以我几乎没有真正利用好这个机会。也就是说，我其实可以做的一件事，就是不要每周都发。

Rachel Lockett对，我很喜欢这个洞察。我听到的其实是两件事：一是在某些地方主动做减法，二是认真思考你的团队，真正把团队容量扩出来。你可以更严格一点地去审视，哪些事其实是可以交出去的，只是你心里对“这些事必须由我来做”还存在一些限制性信念。

Lenny Rachitsky有可能，确实有可能。还有你刚才说的另一点我也很喜欢，就是把“不答应什么”这套原则再优化得更清楚，只留下那些真正对我有价值的事。

Rachel Lockett对。如果你对更多事情说“不”，那你就能对哪些事情说“是”？

Lenny Rachitsky就是去玩、去试、去折腾，给自己留一点空间探索，留一点时间坐着想事，而不是一直冲冲冲、赶赶赶。

Rachel Lockett对。我都能看出来，你一想到那种空间感，整个人就明显轻起来了，甚至有点兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky那真的太好了。

Rachel Lockett我也想把这点明确地反映给你：那是一件很珍贵的事。而且当你有了那样的空间和时间，你在工作里其实会变得更有创造力。

Lenny Rachitsky我喜欢这个说法。

Rachel Lockett而且你的能量桶也会被重新装满。

Lenny Rachitsky我能感觉到，我真能感觉到。

Rachel Lockett好，那你接下来两周里，能做的一件具体事情是什么？它能让你更靠近你想要的那种宽松感。

Lenny Rachitsky我很喜欢……我们这样一走下来，我脑子里一直在想这个 GROW 框架。我特别喜欢你是怎么把它用出来的。我现在是真的能看到它在现场起作用，太好了。

Rachel Lockett对，我现在就是在做一个非常基础版本的 coaching，想让听众也能轻松跟上。
我很喜欢。认真看看你现在都在对什么说“是”，以及你真正想说“是”的东西到底是什么。每答应一件事，本质上都是一次取舍。你越能和那个理想终局建立连接，越能清楚看到那种可能性，眼下就越容易守住纪律。

Lenny Rachitsky我特别喜欢这里面的一个点，就是它强调的是“你会因此得到什么”。不是单纯地“不、不、不”，而是“你是在为另一个你真正很想要的东西说是”。

Rachel Lockett对，正是这个意思。要带着一种真正有共鸣的、全身都在说“对，就是这个”的感觉，去答应那些值得的事。

Lenny RachitskyHell yes。

Rachel Lockett对，hell yes，最好还带个感叹号。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。

Rachel Lockett也谢谢你，Lenny，愿意让我现场示范一下什么叫 powerful questions。我之所以想用你的例子来做，是因为你带出来的问题其实挺大的。它涉及情绪、涉及文化惯性，也涉及我们一路成长、尤其在科技行业工作过程中，慢慢学会的一种生存方式。即便是这样的话题，一个简单的 GROW 模型也依然有帮助。而你的听众平时面对的，往往还是更复杂、更技术化、更紧急的问题。但同样的问题类型，照样可以帮助人打开新的机会空间。不管是在搭技术基础设施、影响 executive team，还是推进 go-to-market strategy，这套问法都能用。所以我想强调的是，它的可迁移性非常强。

Lenny Rachitsky我喜欢的是，这场对话到现在我已经拿到很棒的建议了。

Rachel Lockett那就好。

Lenny Rachitsky至少对我来说，这期 ROI 已经很高了。

Rachel Lockett那在你自己的播客里，被别人这样 coach，是种什么感觉？

Lenny Rachitsky挺奇妙的。我脑子里一直在想，等一下，我是不是得赶紧切回去继续问你问题了。我们现在的脑回路就是这样。

Rachel Lockett好，好，好，那我们切回来。我还是想补充一点：通常和“被直接告诉该怎么做”相比，当一个人是通过 coaching 自己走到答案时，他会更愿意买单、也更愿意真的去做。比如如果我一开始直接跟你说：“Lenny，我听过很多领导者抱怨自己太忙了，你该这样做：先列一张清单，把能委派的都委派出去，再从日历里砍掉 25% 的事情。” 我当然也可以不看语境、直接甩你一长串操作建议。但你才是最懂自己情境的人，也最知道什么会真正打动你。你自己想出来的方案，你执行的概率本来就会高得多。

Lenny Rachitsky我刚刚其实就想说这个，真的太对了。除非你是主动来问建议的，不然几乎没人会真心想听“来，我告诉你该怎么做”。

Rachel Lockett对。

Lenny Rachitsky我也特别认同，未经邀请的建议，通常都不会有好结果。

Rachel Lockett对。而且优秀的领导者经常会先问一句：“你现在是想听建议，还是想先有一点空间把这件事想清楚？你希望我陪你一起想，还是希望我直接告诉你，如果是我会怎么做？” 这两种方式在不同场景下都可能是对的，所以先问一声很有用。

Lenny Rachitsky对，这真的是个很重要的补充，我们前面应该早点提到，幸好你说了。

Rachel Lockett嗯。

Lenny Rachitsky好，那我现在切回去继续问你问题。

Rachel Lockett好。

Lenny Rachitsky这正好可以引到我接下来很想多聊一点的一个话题：burnout。

Rachel Lockett好。

Lenny Rachitsky我刚才说的那些东西，其实很多时候最后都会把人推向 burnout。我自己倒还没到 burnout 的程度，但这在科技行业里确实是个非常普遍的问题。很多人会被彻底耗空，然后一路猛冲。以前和我一起工作过的很多人，后来干脆直接离开科技圈了。我在 Airbnb 有个同事，现在好像去森林边上当公园管理员了，科技行业都能把人逼到这种程度……

Rachel Lockett听起来可真平静。

Lenny Rachitsky对，特别平静，也特别美好。但我觉得很多人就是一口气冲太猛，最后彻底 burnout，然后再也不想碰类似的工作了。我知道你在这个议题上和很多创始人都做过很深的工作，而且你有一套特别有帮助的方法。能不能讲讲，这些年你在帮助科技行业的领导者避免 burnout、长期保持有能量和兴奋感这件事上，都学到了什么？

Rachel Lockett好，首先我很高兴你提到这个。它真的是个大问题。我记得以前我在 Stripe 给顶尖人才做 coaching 时，Patrick Collison 对留住 top talent 这件事非常上心。我当时和团队一起给技术体系里最核心的 50 位高管做了一个项目。我们看了他们的 engagement score，也组织了 coaching circle。最让人难受的是，你会亲眼看到那群明明极有创造力、也极有投入感的领导者，在那个阶段已经疲惫到了什么程度。

这种情况太常见了。很多一开始带着巨大热情、也有很强能力的人，几年之后会慢慢进入一种“我已经一直在推、一直在扛、一直在顶着往前走”的状态。他们要带娃、要带团队、公司里还天天有各种疯狂的事情发生。慢慢地，他们再也调不出当年那种动力了。我在客户身上经常看到这个。
但与此同时，我也见过另一类人。他们依然很有灵感，也持续有能量，好像身体里藏着某种秘密电池。说柴油电池可能不太对，应该说像 Tesla 电池吧。哪怕遇到特别难的挑战，他们还是能一路往前，而且仍然过得挺开心。所以我的理解是：当一个人大部分时间都稳稳待在自己的天赋区、优势区里时，他的能量就是会更足。我们每个人在做那些自己天然擅长、也发自内心喜欢的事时，状态都会更好。
所以我会尽量帮助我的客户看见，他们其实可以把自己的生活设计成：80% 的时间都花在自己的天赋上。听起来很理想化，因为现实环境对你的要求往往很多，尤其当你已经是大公司的高管时更是如此。但我也经常接触创始人。他们一开始创办公司时，带着很强的灵感和创业愿景，可一旦融完资、团队变大，他们的工作内容几乎每六个月就会换一轮。很多技术型创始人，最开始只是着迷于某个技术问题，埋头三年把产品做出来，结果产品上线后，自己却被困在董事会管理和团队管理里，甚至没意识到：我现在做的，已经完全不是那个最能发挥我优势的工作了。
所以我很喜欢给大家一个简单工具：连续两周，每天晚上都花一点时间回顾一下，今天哪五件事最给我能量？哪五件事最消耗我？如果你认真做两周，再回头看其中的模式，你就会慢慢看出来：我真正活在其中的天赋是什么？哪些事情是我不得不做、但其实一直在悄悄掏空我的？那种消耗通常不是一下子把你击倒的，更像是油箱里有个慢慢漏油的小洞，时间久了，就会反映在你每天能调动出来的能量上。

Lenny Rachitsky我太相信这条建议了，而且我也觉得它非常有效。我自己当年离开上一份工作时，就是这么做的。我每天都很有意识地观察：什么东西给我能量？什么东西在抽走我的能量？然后我就尽量多做前者，少做后者。这里面我也想聊一个现实问题，就是你能改变的事情终究是有限的。但先说回这个方法。最开始我还想过，也许我会去做顾问、advisor 那类工作。结果后来我发现，那对我来说其实特别耗。

Rachel Lockett有意思。

Lenny Rachitsky就是一通通电话打下来，跟人聊事情，感觉都停留在表面层次，给对方一些“如果是我我会怎么做”的建议。对我来说那一点都不兴奋，也不提神。反倒是写作特别给我能量，而这件事我以前完全没想到。

Rachel Lockett我喜欢这个发现。

Lenny Rachitsky后来我就顺着这个方向走了。

Rachel Lockett听起来，也许你现在又到了该再调一次频的时候了，Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky哦，这个说法很有意思。

Rachel Lockett因为你永远都还能继续把自己的天赋调得更准。你现在显然已经在一个很好的位置上了，你之所以成功也是有原因的。你待在自己的优势里，也一直在留意什么会给你能量。但这件事是一辈子都可以持续做下去的。我觉得，它本质上是一个不断重新对准自己火花在哪里的过程。然后去保护那团火，去喂养它。

Lenny Rachitsky这个洞察我太喜欢了，刚刚真的有点被点醒。

所以如果非常落地来做，这个方法就是：连续两周，每晚回看当天，写下五件给你能量的事，以及五件消耗你能量的事，对吗？

Rachel Lockett对，当然你也可以用很多别的方法。这只是其中一种。我还很喜欢另一个练习：给你生活里 5 到 10 个熟悉你的人发一封非常简单的邮件，问他们一句：“当我走进一个房间时，你会感受到什么？你觉得我的优势是什么？我的天赋是什么？” 如果你自己其实还不太知道，也没怎么花时间认真想过这个领域，那就直接去问最了解你的人，他们眼里的核心天赋是什么、你在什么状态下最有灵感，这也很有帮助。

你还可以翻自己的日历，去看里面的主题。比如回头看过去一个月：哪些安排是我一看就期待的？哪些事情是我光想到就开始抗拒的？那我为什么抗拒？这些让我抗拒的事情，彼此之间有什么共同点？其实有很多路径都能帮你找到自己的 zone of genius，但我真正想邀请大家做的，是把这件事当真。因为按自己的天赋来设计生活，本身是需要冒一些风险、也需要有意识投入的。

Lenny Rachitsky那有没有一些建议，能帮助大家真的把这件事做起来？很多人听到这里都会说：“对，我是该做这个。” 但现实里大多数人并不会真的去做。比如要不要找个 buddy 陪你一起做？或者如果你有 EA，他能不能帮你推进这件事？你有没有见过一些比较有效的方式？

Rachel Lockett这个问题很好。我也很喜欢你刚才提的那些思路。我觉得，关键是你身边的人也要知道你的天赋是什么，并且愿意支持你。比如我以前在 Stripe 做 HR business partner 时，我的老板就很认可这一点。我当时跟她讲得很直白：“我来 Stripe，其实是因为我知道自己未来会成为 coach。我不会去做 Head of HR。但我很喜欢和领导者一起工作。所以我会去做薪酬策略、组织设计，也会支持产品和工程团队的领导者。但我心里一直很清楚，我其实是在打磨自己的 coaching 能力。”

后来当“如何留住顶尖人才”这个机会出现时，它就和我原本在 coaching、L&D 这些方向上的背景高度契合。所以她自然就把这件事交给我来做。也就是说，把这些话讲给你身边的人听是很有用的。告诉他们：我的天赋是什么，我的兴趣是什么，我特别想继续打磨哪些能力。这样他们才更容易和你站在一边，一起想办法，把你的天赋用在业务最需要的地方。这是一种做法。
如果你是创始人、CEO，或者你本来就有更高的自主权去定义身边的角色范围，那你甚至可以围绕它去招人。我有些 CEO 客户就是这样：他们很会做愿景，很会做战略，也很会管董事会、招人等等；但他们特别不擅长带团队，而且很讨厌这件事。那他们就去招一个 COO。两个人搭档，一个更聚焦内部运转，一个更聚焦外部方向，形成很好的互补关系。只要你对自己的优点和短板足够诚实，就能开始围绕它们来设计你的工作方式。

Lenny Rachitsky这期节目还要感谢 Persona 的支持。它是一套身份验证平台，帮助组织完成用户 onboarding、打击欺诈、建立信任。Lenny 这里插播了一段赞助口播，核心是：AI 进步很快，但欺诈者也在利用同样的技术制造麻烦，而 Persona 能通过自动化的用户、企业和员工验证来应对这些风险，还给听众提供了一年每月 500 次免费服务。口播之后，我们回到正题。

知道自己想做什么、也知道理想生活长什么样，当然很好。但现实是你还有工作、有老板、有责任、有一堆必须处理的事。所以我想先问一个比较现实的问题：在你的经验里，那些并不是创始人的普通职业人，真的能做出改变吗？真的能往更适合自己的方向移动，花更多时间待在自己的天赋里，而不是只停留在“想一想”？

Rachel Lockett当然可以。

Lenny Rachitsky所以这其实也是这个方法里一个隐含的重要前提：你是有 agency 的，你是可以朝着一个让自己更快乐的方向移动的。

Rachel Lockett对。我觉得有时候，人们会请 Chief of Staff 来帮助自己、补自己的短板；有时候会有意识地把团队设计成自己缺什么、团队里就有人擅长什么。所以一旦你真的弄清楚了：哪些事特别给我能量，哪些事特别消耗我，你就可以开始更有创意地思考，虽然业务需求还得满足，但我到底有哪些方式可以满足这些需求？

Lenny Rachitsky而且我觉得，把这些直接告诉你的 manager，是这件事里一个特别简单但又特别重要的动作。就是直接告诉他——

Rachel Lockett完全同意。

Lenny Rachitsky——这是我想往前走的方向，这是我想变强的能力，这些事会给我能量。我们能不能尽量把我的角色往这个方向靠拢？

Rachel Lockett对。尤其当你本来就在把工作做好时，别人其实是想留住你的。他们会想知道：未来五年，什么会让你愿意继续留在这里？通常很多人默认答案是“继续往上升”。但对你来说，也许未必如此。有时候你反而需要有勇气横向移动，才能真正走进自己的优势区。我自己的人生里就横向转过好几次，现在我很喜欢我做的事，也觉得自己终于活在天赋里了。但那一路上也伴随了一些冒险，还有一些不太舒服的岗位，那些工作在当时看起来甚至像是“配不上我的资历”，可正是这些绕路，把我带到了今天。

Lenny Rachitsky那如果从比例上来讲，一个人工作里大概有多少时间应该花在自己的天赋和那些会给自己能量的事上？又有多少时间是不可避免地要去做那些“说不上喜欢，但也得做”的事？

Rachel Lockett我的标准线是 80%，那是目标。

Lenny Rachitsky80%。

Rachel Lockett对，这是一种理想目标。你永远都会有 20% 的事不是你喜欢做的，毕竟现实里总有各种琐碎、各种把你拉进某种工作状态的必要准备。但我还是会尽量鼓励大家，用更有野心一点的方式去想这件事：如果你有 80% 的时间都活在自己的天赋里，那你能带给世界的能量会大很多，整个人也会更有生命力。

我之所以对这个议题这么有热情，其实也和我后来为什么会成为 Executive Coach 有关。十年前，我在一家叫 Remind 的小公司工作，当时负责 UX Research 团队。后来 CEO 问我要不要转去做 Core Product 团队的 Product Manager。我当时其实挺兴奋的。虽然我不是技术背景，但我心想：那些做 roadmap 的战略型角色，不也是在上面思考方向吗？这我也能做啊，我很懂用户到底需要什么。所以我是真心很期待这个机会的。
我进到那个团队时，里面大概有 12 位资深工程师，个个都有很强的观点，也都对一个非技术背景的 PM 抱着怀疑态度。但我们还是一起开始合作了。而我真正做的事情，其实是听。去听用户要什么，这个团队要什么，什么在起作用，什么没有起作用。

Rachel Lockett我会去问：这个团队需要什么？什么在顺畅运转，什么没有？结果不到一个月，这个团队的配合就顺起来了。大家开始互相 review 代码，在团队会议里也能进行健康的分歧讨论，和用户的连接感也更强了。我当时会觉得：好，这套节奏在起作用。但与此同时，我在家里却经常半夜为了新用户体验焦虑到睡不着，卡在“到底该选哪一版设计”上。我总是过度依赖数据科学家，在很多其实没必要消耗这么多情绪的决策上来回打转。有一天我和同事 Zach Abrams 一起散步，他是个非常优秀的 PM。我一路都在问他，怎么把这个产品未来的愿景讲得更有说服力。

然后他对我说：“Rachel，你的 zone of genius，你真正的天赋，并不是做产品战略。但我这几个月一直在看你工作，我发现你把这个团队激励起来的程度，是我根本做不到的；而且你还让整个 executive team 都站到了你的想法背后，这非常厉害。你是个 people person。” 我一开始其实有点被刺痛了。什么？你是说我没有能力成为一个优秀的产品领导者？但后来我慢慢把这句话放在心里消化，我知道他说得对。我的父母都是治疗师，而我从小就说自己绝对不要做治疗师。结果你看，我现在基本就是个“职场治疗师”。我喜欢创业那种能量，喜欢大愿景，但归根到底，我就是一个很在乎人的人。
后来我离开了那份工作，也慢慢意识到：我真的很喜欢我的教练在做的事情。于是我去接受了教练训练，后来又走进 HR leadership。Zach 这个天生很强的产品战略型人才，则一路去做了 Coinbase 和 Brex 的产品负责人，最近又去了 Bridge，后来那家公司被 Stripe 收购。而且他现在依然是我的客户。我们看着彼此在过去十年里一路成长，也都一直在打磨各自真正的天赋。人一旦活在自己的天赋里，生活会更有趣，你能给这个世界带出去的灵感和能力也会更多。所以我很想讲这个故事，因为当你关心的人在某个状态下看起来特别有能量，或者特别被耗空时，坦诚地把这件事说出来，是有帮助的。有时候，这就是一个提醒，会把人重新叫醒，让他认真去想：我真正的火花到底在哪？我要怎么保护它，怎么持续喂养它。

Lenny Rachitsky我特别喜欢这个故事。因为我觉得大多数人一听到这种建议，比如“我现在很疲惫，我有点 burnout 了”，第一反应通常是：好，但我实际上也改变不了什么啊，我有工作、有责任。我从你这里听到的重点是，第一步最关键的，不是先去想“我能不能改”，而是先搞清楚：我真正应该做什么？什么会给我能量？我的天赋到底是什么？感觉对很多人来说，真正的缺口反而是在这一步。因为一旦你知道了这些，后面其实总能找到办法。你可以去跟 manager 说，也许今天做不到，但这是我想去的方向，这是我想更多投入时间的地方。不过我也很喜欢你前面那个提醒：前提是你得先把现在的工作做好，不然你也不能一边表现很差，一边跟老板说“但我想去做战略”。

Rachel Lockett对。毕竟，帮你活在自己的天赋里，从来都不是别人的职责。我在大公司里经常看到，很多人会因为自己的工作不够有意思而对管理层感到不满，仿佛他们应该替你把这件事安排好。但其实不是。你经理的职责，是帮助你在被雇来做的岗位上表现好；规划自己的职业路径，是你自己的责任。所以从长期职业生涯来看，更核心的问题是：你要怎么把自己的天赋和世界的需求对上？如果你此刻面对的“世界”就是你的公司，那你就要先理解这个公司真正需要什么，然后再想，怎么把自己的优势安放进这些需要里。

Lenny Rachitsky这让我想起我之前请过的两位嘉宾，他们就是这么做的。虽然他们都是创始人，所以语境更偏创始人一点。比如 Rahul Vohra 在 Superhuman 时就意识到，自己并不是最适合做执行和运营的人，所以他招了一个 president，把那些事全接过去了。还有 HubSpot 的联合创始人 Dharmesh，他从一开始就知道自己不想管人，所以他和 co-founder 约好一条原则：“我永远不要有直接汇报对象。” 他现在应该还是 CTO，但完全没有 direct reports，也没有 one-on-one。

Rachel Lockett对。我觉得能认清这一点，本身就是很美好的事。但与此同时，你也得把那些原本应该由你带的人安顿好。很多人只是知道：“唉，我不想做 one-on-one。” 但如果你只是因此就让这些人没有人管理，那对公司也不会健康。所以你既要认真对待自己的优势，也要主动设计机制，去兜住自己的短板。

Lenny Rachitsky在这个议题上，最后还有没有什么建议，能帮助大家走到一个不那么耗竭、在工作里更有能量的状态？

Rachel Lockett我会建议从小处开始。你不需要立刻辞职、也不需要一下子把整个人生重做一遍。你可以先不去那些可去可不去、而且特别消耗你的场合。你也可以在那些你必须参加、但很耗你的事情之间，故意留一点空档，出去走 30 分钟，把自己的油箱补一补。就从明天开始问自己：我要做哪三件事，来先把这个漏油的洞堵上，重新把那团火点起来？甚至可能只是，你本来就很喜欢读书，那你决定从今晚开始，每天睡前读 30 分钟。它不一定非得是一次戏剧性的人生转向。但你得承认，什么和你真正有共鸣，什么会持续消耗你，只有你自己知道。如果你想在这个世界里更有目的感、更有影响力地出现，那认真对待这件事，就是你的责任。

Lenny Rachitsky我太喜欢这条建议了。我最近其实真的开始每晚睡前读 30 分钟书，而且特别快乐。就是拿一本纸质书，再配一个小夜灯。

Rachel Lockett我同意。我也特别喜欢纸质书。我有 Kindle，也有各种设备，但窝在沙发上读一本真正的书，还是最舒服的。

Lenny Rachitsky对，小夜灯真的特别关键。因为有时候夜里你就需要一本“夜读书”。前面我们大多聊的是个体成长，比如怎么搞清楚自己应该做什么、怎么学会 coaching 之类的。我想把视角再往上抬一点，聊聊团队层面的能力，也就是人怎么和别人更好地一起工作。你有一个特别出名的领域，就是帮助 co-founder 建立更好的关系。而在我看来，创业里最难的事情之一，就是 co-founder 关系。很多人根本没意识到自己会走进什么。你基本上就是在一种高压环境下和这个人“结婚”了，而且有时你对他并没有那么了解。

Rachel Lockett完全是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky一旦你们合作不好，这件事的影响会非常大，因为它会一路往下渗，所有人都看得见。而 co-founder 一旦离开，对整个团队来说通常都是很糟糕的事。那我就直接问了：你觉得，帮助 co-founder 建立健康关系、保持愉快且高效合作，最有帮助的到底是什么？

Rachel Lockett谢谢你问这个。我特别喜欢和 co-founder 一起工作，因为我觉得，一个人的核心价值观，只有在它碰上另一个人的核心价值观时，才会真正显出来。不管是健康的冲突还是不健康的冲突，本质上都是你核心价值观浮出水面的地方。所以看着两个人在彼此的愿景、彼此的优点和短板之间，努力一起做成一件极其困难的事，是非常迷人的。对我来说，co-founder 动态里有非常强的能量；对 co-founder 自己来说也是一样。可问题是，这件事往往又很私密，很多人既不会拿去和董事会聊，也不会轻易跟外人说。它有点像婚姻：你会去找伴侣咨询师，但不会把“我现在真有点受不了我伴侣了”这类话到处告诉朋友，哪怕这件事已经让你夜里睡不着。所以它是一段很脆弱、很重要的关系，而外界对 co-founder 关系的支持其实远远不够。这种困境本身又非常常见。

实际上，你大概也知道那个统计：65% 的创业公司失败，都和 co-founder 冲突有关。co-founder 一边在试图为公司建未来，一边又在为自己的生计下注，所以“和 co-founder 处好”这件事里，押上的东西非常多。我觉得，一段健康关系最核心需要的，第一是自我觉察。也就是：我把什么带进了这段关系？对方是怎么体验到我的？这个人又把什么带进了关系里？而我对这些东西的反应是什么？所以第一步其实是共同建立一种觉察：我们两个人现在的互动模式，到底是什么？我自己很喜欢用九型人格做这件事，但其实很多自我认知工具都可以，重点是给彼此一套共同语言，让我们更容易知道“这是我的典型模式，那是你的典型模式”。
一个特别典型的例子，和角色分工有关。CTO 往往更像怀疑者。他们喜欢事实，追求知识，想要更深的理解和把握，也通常更倾向自给自足。这当然是很大的概括，但这个模式我真的看过很多次。CEO 则通常是那个负责卖愿景的人，他们更喜欢大的画面和策略，也往往很擅长影响别人，会在现实还没完全长出来之前，就先把未来讲出去。这两种角色天然就会形成一种张力：一边是接近盲目乐观，一边是持续怀疑。两个人在这段关系里，其实一直在跳这支舞。所以第一步，是先知道自己正在跳什么舞，不然你们就只会彼此踩脚，却不知道自己到底在发生什么。
第二步，则是更有意识地对这段关系本身做出承诺。比如在婚姻里，我常会说 co-founder 也需要 vows、需要 recommitment、需要 renewal。因为婚姻里很多人结婚后、生了孩子后，就会以为：“我们反正一直都在一起做这件事，关系自然会自己运转下去。” 但其实，夫妻需要 date night，co-founder 同样也需要专门留出时间和空间，重新坐下来连接彼此，问一句：“你现在感觉怎么样？我们的愿景和战略还一致吗？我们合作得怎么样？我最近做了什么让你很烦？有什么话一直没说，但其实应该拿出来聊？”

Rachel Lockett但如果你整天都埋在创业公司日常运转和扩张的兵荒马乱里，你根本不会主动给这种对话留时间。所以我真的觉得，co-founder 必须刻意为彼此的关系腾出空间。不管是每两周一起吃顿晚饭，还是固定约午餐，哪怕只是定期做一点业务之外的对齐，再或者至少每个季度安排一次线下 check-in，这种空间对 co-founder 关系的健康程度非常关键。

Lenny Rachitsky你刚才说的第二点，就是 vows 这个想法，真的特别好。你是会真的建议大家明确写下来“这是我承诺要做到的事”吗？

Rachel Lockett对，就是“这是我愿意承诺去做的”。我最近其实刚和 First Round 一起写过一篇文章，我们还做了一个文档，帮助 co-founder 去想：他们的定期 check-in 里到底应该放进哪些内容。里面有 weekly、monthly、annual 各种频率的 check-in 模板，也有很多可以坐下来互相提问的问题。主动倾听在这种场景里会非常有用。但更核心的是，你得从一味 hustle、只顾着跑业务的状态里抽身出来，重新站到更高一点的视角去看这家公司。我很喜欢一个比喻：不要永远待在舞池里跳舞，你也需要有时间站到阳台上，往下看看到底发生了什么。我们现在做得怎么样？这套合作方式对我们俩来说还有效吗？而 vows 本质上就是在回答：我们打算怎么一起走下去？我们准备怎么出现？我们想共同创造一种什么样的文化？

哪怕你在创业早期不想正式做一整套文化建设练习，你也至少该对彼此之间想怎么相处有一点基本共识。我们准备怎么做决策？遇到冲突时怎么处理？这些东西其实都可以在一开始就更有意识地和 co-founder 一起设计出来。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。到时候我们会把那篇文章也贴出来。至于第一步，听起来你挺推荐九型人格的？它本质上算是一个很多人都很喜欢的人格画像工具。

Rachel Lockett对，我确实挺喜欢九型人格的。但我也觉得，你们完全可以不用任何人格测试，直接坐下来坦白聊。比如互相说：“这是我觉得自己的优势，这是我看到的短板，你怎么看？你给我一点反馈，你认同吗？” 如果你们想更务实一点、直接一点，也可以就开诚布公地聊：我带来的天赋是什么，我的短板是什么；我准备怎么放大我的优势、怎么补我的短板；你又准备怎么做。再往前一步，其实也很值得聊一聊：随着公司继续往前长，我们俩都覆盖不到的那些能力缺口是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky那如果已经进入另一种状态了呢？比如两个人会说：“我们关系现在真的不太行，张力很大。” 我们前面聊的那些东西，更像是从一开始就为成功做准备：先搞清楚你擅长什么、你带来了什么；有意识地承诺彼此怎么合作；定期吃饭、聊天。我也特别喜欢那个“走到阳台上往下看”的比喻。那些都很好。但如果现在已经陷在里面了，已经开始觉得很烦、没那么喜欢这个人了，或者彼此之间一直很紧绷，那他们这周、下周到底能做什么？

Rachel Lockett一般来找我的 co-founder，通常是两种情况。要么是在比较早的阶段，他们很想有意识地把这段关系搭好，一开始就为它打基础。但更常见的是另一种：他们已经对彼此非常挫败了，张力强到谁都能感觉出来，已经快受不了了，可他们又对这家公司有很深的投入，看不到一个轻易退出的选项。并且，他们也知道自己在某个阶段其实真的很喜欢这个 co-founder，所以他们觉得关系也许还有恢复的可能，这才会来找教练。我给你讲一个案例吧。那是一对做 PR 生意的搭档，公司冲得非常快。创业初期，一个人更偏 visionary，很会卖业务；两个人的 PR 能力都很强；而另一位搭档则在运营上特别厉害。

可随着公司扩大，一个人开始接越来越多的 business development，另一个人则把所有内部事务都扛了起来，结果也被大量 people management 和管理一个扩大中团队的各种复杂环节拖得非常累，而这些原本都不是她预期自己要承担的。当他们来找我时，我觉得他们俩心里其实都不确定：我们还能不能把这件事理顺？是该把公司卖掉？还是继续往前？其中一个 co-founder 当时还跟我说过一句话，大意是：“要么结束，要么狠狠干。” 他们已经走到了一个决策关口。而我看到他们做对的第一件事，是他们把当前状态说得非常清楚。我们当时还用了 360 反馈，让团队给他们反馈，然后他们再彼此分享。不是一上来就能做到，但随着过程推进，他们慢慢能更开放、更脆弱地讲清楚：什么在起作用，什么没有。
后来他们意识到，自己以前其实很喜欢一起搭档做这件事。但随着各自开始带不同的团队，他们彼此之间也越来越远了。两个人甚至住在美国两端。直到他们重新真正坐下来，看见彼此各自缺了什么，也看见在没有对方支持的情况下去带这样一家高速扩张的公司有多孤独，同时也重新意识到：原来我真的需要对方来平衡我的优势，而这部分这些年已经不见了。这其实就是他们修复关系的一个重要起点。
后来在我们的 coaching 里，他们重新把注意力转回彼此身上，也逐渐建立起一种不靠我在场也能继续运转的互动节奏。等这段 coaching 结束时，他们的状态是焕然一新的，也重新做出了更深的承诺。他们调整了领导团队，去补上那些空缺；我记得他们后来还开始每周线上见一次面，同时建立了每季度线下碰一次的节奏。当然，我不是说只要见面就一定能修好。有时真正坐下来狠狠干一场，反而会带来另一种清晰。比如我上周刚陪过一组 co-founder，我们一起做了一整天的线下面对面讨论，认真拆他们这对搭档到底是怎么做决策的。
而那次聊完之后，结论反而变得非常清楚：其中一位 co-founder 其实很不开心，也并不真正欣赏对方，而且他并不打算改变。他也意识到，自己就是问题的重要组成部分。我判断他很可能会离开公司。但这依然算成功，因为它带来了 clarity。你不再是在黑暗里稀里糊涂地耗着，带着挫败感、却对自己正身处怎样的人际动态毫无觉察；而是基于各自的优势、公司真正需要什么，以及你们这段关系本身的现实，做出选择：要么继续投入下去，要么带着善意退出。

Lenny Rachitsky我特别喜欢这里面和婚姻的相似性，几乎所有东西都很像。感觉就是在做同一类事情。

Rachel Lockett完全是。婚姻本来就是在和另一个人一起搭建一段生活。严格说，唯一的区别只是婚姻往往还包含性吸引和爱情，而 co-founder 关系未必一定有这些。虽然我也确实合作过既是夫妻又是 co-founder 的人。但我还是觉得，co-founder 之间应该有某种“爱”的成分。事实上，当你和同事足够紧密地并肩工作，真正看见对方的天赋，并帮助他们发挥出来时，你其实很难不对这个人产生爱意。

Lenny Rachitsky这话分量很重。另一个 takeaway 好像是：如果关系真的不顺，去找 coaching 吧。感觉这是个很直接的解法。光靠彼此聊天，能走到的地方其实有限。

Rachel Lockett这确实需要一个比较成熟的 facilitator。无论是其中一位 co-founder，还是外部的人，都得能同时容纳两件事：一边是挫败和愤怒，一边是同理和理解。所以外部支持是有价值的。有时候那个人甚至不一定非得是教练，也可能是团队里的某个人，可能是 HR 负责人，甚至是那个刚好特别会处理人的 GC。你不一定非得找 coach，但你一定需要一个空间，让大家能在里面脆弱、开放、保持好奇。如果你们自己就能把这样的空间搭起来，那当然很好，我觉得这完全有可能。

Lenny Rachitsky那如果不只看 co-founder 关系，你还有没有什么更实操一点的方法，能帮大家提升和普通团队成员、同事相处的能力？就是那种会说：“我和这个人真的很难处，我和很多人都挺难相处。” 的情况。

Rachel Lockett首先，人在准备进入一场冲突，或者准备去谈一件已经明显“不对劲”的事时，通常都是穿着盔甲进去的，已经做好了证明自己是对的准备。这很正常。你可能已经反复想了很久：我要不要提？等你终于决定开口时，很多人脑子里的默认目标，还是“我要让对方意识到他做错了”。但其实，任何冲突真正的目标，都应该是建立 mutual understanding，也就是彼此理解。比如说，如果我要去和我丈夫聊一件事，假设他最近没有承担起应有的育儿部分，那我真正的目标，不是证明他在家里做得有多少，而是让他理解我现在到底在挣扎什么，好让他能共情、能看清现在发生了什么，也许还能在某种程度上回应我的需要。因为他也可能对眼前的局面有完全不同的叙事。

所以这里我想给大家一个很多客户都在用的框架，来自 Marshall Rosenberg 的《非暴力沟通》Nonviolent Communication。这既是一本书，也是一套框架。它有四步。第一步是 observations，也就是观察。你的任务是先把事实发生了什么说清楚。比如：“我注意到，过去三次 sprint planning meeting，你都没有邀请我参加，也没有把 roadmap 分享给我。” 这就是观察，它是事实，是你拍张照片都能留下来的东西，没有人能否认。第二步是 feelings，也就是感受。接下来你要在不指责的前提下，说出自己的感受。比如：“因为不知道这周的 roadmap 是什么，我感到很焦虑。因为我没有被纳入其中，我也有点困惑，不知道那场会到底开没开。” 这一步是在分享我的感受，好让对方理解我经历了什么，而不是一上来就进入防御。
第三步是 needs，也就是需要。围绕这个议题，我有哪些普遍的人类需要没有被满足？每个人都有需要。这里不是在要求对方立刻为你做什么，而是在帮助对方理解：我现在缺的是什么。比如，我有对 clarity 的需要，有对 collaboration 的需要，有对 connection 的需要，等等。最后一步，是 request，也就是请求。在这个模型里，请求像是一根橄榄枝，它是为了帮助对方更好地靠近你、看见你。这个请求不应该是那种几乎做不到的事，最好是很小、很具体、也很容易实现的一步，让对方能够比较容易地在这段连接里获得成功感。比如在这个例子里，我可能会说：“下次你们开 sprint planning meeting 时，能不能把我作为 optional 参与者也加进去？或者会后把你们对齐好的 roadmap 发我一份？”
当然，对方不一定非得答应我的请求。他也可能提出一个 counter proposal。但这个模型最重要的，不是让对方立刻照做，而是让他真正理解我正在经历什么，并且别那么容易进入反应模式，这样我们才可能围绕“到底发生了什么”展开一场真正的对话。

Lenny Rachitsky哇。你刚刚说的这点太厉害了。就是当你觉得哪里出问题了，想说服别人时，你真正的目标不是“说服”，而是“建立相互理解”。这一点真的把我击中了，我觉得它可能会改变我的生活。

Rachel LockettLenny，你今晚就可以拿这个去和你太太试试。NVC 是个非常有力的工具，而且它和很多以“建立连接”为核心的模型其实很像。就像斯坦福商学院那个大家都很喜欢的课，名字里还带个 T，叫 Touchy Feely。

Lenny Rachitsky对，我们之前请过 Carol 上播客。

Rachel Lockett太好了。对，Carole Robin 做出了这一整套影响力。已经有很多相关材料了，很多创始人也会去学她那套专门面向 founder 的模型。

Lenny Rachitsky也很适合科技圈。

Rachel Lockett对。这里面有个很重要的比喻，就是“网”。你可以谈自己的感受，谈自己的反应，但只要你越过那张网，开始指责对方，或者开始替对方做假设，对方就很容易立刻防御起来。相反，只要你待在自己这一边，你其实可以非常大胆、也非常勇敢。所以这个模型真正帮你的，是在不带责备的情况下，把自己的情绪、需要和请求表达出来。

Lenny Rachitsky对。所以我刚刚边听你讲边在想，这套框架其实就是：先说“这是我，我看到了什么，我现在是什么感受，我需要什么”，然后在这个上下文里，再说“基于这些，我现在想向你提出这个请求”。而不是说“你做了什么、你让我怎样、你心里一定是怎么想的”。

Rachel Lockett完全正确。而且这套东西还有一个很重要的前提：它承认职业人士也是有情绪的。我们在科技行业里，总被默认应该把自己的全部、所有时间和所有精力都交给这项事业，而且还要假装这一切完全是理性的。其实根本不是，它非常情绪化。如果你忽略自己的感受，这些情绪最后还是会冒出来，只不过那时候你已经是在无意识地被它们驱动了。

Lenny Rachitsky而且这里面还有一种隐含的力量：如果对方在乎你、喜欢你，或者至少重视你们之间的关系，那当他知道这件事让你难受时，他自然就更有动力做出调整。不是那种“你给我改掉这个问题”，而是“原来这件事会让你这么不舒服，原来你在这里有这样一个需要。现在我知道了，我就更能理解为什么这件事对你这么重要。”

Rachel Lockett对，就是这个意思。当然，有时候对方听完，也可能会给出另一套叙事、另一个视角。他可能会说：“好，我可以回应这个请求。” 也可能会说：“我听到了你的请求，也听到了你的感受，但我也想和你讲讲我这边发生了什么。” 这时候一种很好的说法就是：“你愿意也听听我的版本吗？” 这样对方也能把自己的那部分讲出来。你并不需要对方无条件照单全收。只要你把这个基调立住了，对方就更可能用一种有助于 mutual understanding 的方式参与进来。因为当你先展示脆弱时，对方也更容易把自己的脆弱拿出来。

Lenny Rachitsky我再帮大家复述一下这个框架，我准备自己也试着用用看。真希望它有个更好记的缩写。总之，它的结构是：先说你观察到了什么，只讲事实本身。比如很简单地说：“我看到你没有把冰箱门完全关好。” 然后说你的感受，这件事让你有什么感觉；再说你的需要，我理解这背后应该是某个更底层的人类需要；最后提出你的请求。

Rachel Lockett对。还有一点我刚刚忘了补充，就是 feelings 真的是情绪，不是别的。有时候人会说：“我感觉你很混蛋。” 这显然不是 feeling。feeling 是你身体里的一种感受，最后形成一个情绪词。对一些技术型领导者来说，准确说出自己的 feeling 其实并不容易。我特别想强调这一点，因为情绪恰恰是通往连接背后那层人性的入口。情绪，是唤起共情的关键。

Lenny Rachitsky那有没有一些典型表达，能帮助大家判断“这其实不是 feeling”？比如只要在描述 feeling 时用了 “you”，是不是通常就不太对？

Rachel Lockett对，差不多就是这个意思。如果你说的是 “I feel like...” 或者 “I feel that...”，你后面大概率跟上的就不是 feeling，而是一个事实判断。真正的 feeling，应该是在 “I feel” 后面直接接一个情绪词。

Lenny Rachitsky所以别说 like，别说 you，别说 that？

Rachel Lockett对，基本就是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。顺着这个话题，我之前和不少跟你合作过的客户聊过，大家反复提到的一点就是：你特别擅长帮助他们去处理 difficult conversations。我觉得我们刚才其实已经覆盖了其中很大一部分，但我还是想问一句，除了这些之外，你还有没有别的建议，能帮助大家把困难对话变得没那么难？我先读一段你某个客户对你的评价。

Rachel Lockett哇，这个我喜欢。

Lenny Rachitsky她说：“Rachel 特别擅长把困难决策梳理清楚，也让这些决策真正落地看起来变得可能。” 所以我想问的是，除了前面这些之外，对于“困难对话为什么会这么难，以及怎么让它没那么难”，你还有什么 tips？

Rachel Lockett有。首先，困难对话这四个字，本身就会让人想逃。冲突这件事的“营销”做得太差了，所以我先想换个框架去看它。我的理解是，当我们内心出现 ambivalence，也就是摇摆、别扭、矛盾时，其实是我们体内有两个部分正在打架。而这种矛盾感，往往正说明有一些很重要、也很值得学习的东西正在发生。冲突之所以会出现，是因为有某件重要的东西被押上去了。我们在乎我们正在做的事，也在乎那个让我们失望的人。正因为这里面有很深的情绪成分，所以它才难；也正因为如此，它里面才有东西可学。

所以我首先想邀请正在听的人换个念头：这件事之所以难，是因为这里面有我该学习的东西，也因为它真的重要。所以我不是要躲开它、逃走，而是要主动走进这个时刻。我希望自己从里面出来时，不只是把眼前这段关系处理掉，不只是把自己那番话说完，而是真的长出一项能力。这也是为什么我一直这么关注人际动态，因为我真的相信：我们关系的质量，决定了我们生活的质量。如果你没有能力进入冲突，你就不可能拥有健康的关系。我们注定会和自己爱的人、在乎的人，或者一起做生意的人产生分歧。所以第一步，我希望大家把这种内在矛盾和人际挑战重新理解成一种成长机会。
第二点是，任何冲突里，其实总有一部分是我们自己也参与造成的。哪怕当下你会觉得，对方简直疯了，把我逼疯了，我明明才是那个无辜的人。可即便如此，带着谦逊进入冲突、对对方的体验保持好奇，仍然是把桌子摆好、为“我们最后能更强地走出来”创造条件的关键。所以不管是 NVC 还是别的模型，都救不了一个一上来就僵硬、全身都是指责的人。我很喜欢那本《15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders》，不知道你知不知道。里面有个概念是：为一切承担 100% 责任。不要活在 blame、victim 或 hero 的叙事里。我经常看到很多领导者在棘手的人际冲突里，一会儿掉进受害者心态，一会儿在责怪别人，一会儿又跑去扮英雄：“算了，我替他们做吧。他们搞这个实在太费劲了，我自己来。”
更好的做法是，先为自己那一部分负责。问一句：“在这段关系会发展成今天这样这件事上，我贡献了哪一部分？我能怎么处理自己这部分？”

Lenny Rachitsky这让我想到 Jerry Colonna 之前上播客时说过的一句特别有名的话，我一直记着：你是如何参与制造了那些你嘴上说自己并不想要的局面的？

Rachel Lockett对，我太喜欢这个问题了。

Lenny Rachitsky这句话里其实有很多层，我就不展开了。但你刚才讲的，大意就是：去认真想这件事，因为你的意思其实是，任何你正在抱怨的问题，你总归在某种程度上也参与塑造了它。这样想，也会帮助你先把对方的防御放下来，比如你可以先说：“这是我对这个问题的贡献。” 那在实践里，你会用非暴力沟通这个框架来处理 difficult conversations 吗？还是说，它更像是一种通用方法，不一定非得套框架？

Rachel Lockett我觉得它就是一个很好的框架，适合你在遇到某件“已经开始让你不舒服”的事时，拿去和对方展开互动。通常，一场困难对话之所以会被触发，就是因为你这边已经起了某种情绪，也有某个需要没有被满足。所以这其实就是一个信号：好，我该和这个人谈谈了，我们需要把这件事理清楚。

比如我之前合作过一位 CEO，他的 co-founder 会不断拆他的台、质疑他的决定。那里面显然已经有某种东西变了。他们原来明明是一对非常强的搭档，一起融过资，也招了几个核心 leader，结果突然之间，这个 CEO 开始感觉自己天天都在被飞刀扎。那种感觉既累、又烦、又困惑。那正是一个很适合用 NVC 来处理的时刻：到底发生了什么？后来他们才发现，那个 co-founder 真正不满的是他如何分配自己的时间。他不希望他老在外面卖公司、搞销售，他希望对方更多回来一起做产品愿景。而他们俩对“CEO 到底应该把时间花在哪儿”这件事，本来就有完全不同的理解。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。你再帮大家提醒一下 NVC 这个框架吧，因为真正到了现场，大家最容易卡住的就是：“等下，我到底该怎么说？” 观察、感受、需要、请求。

Rachel Lockett对，就是这样。如果大家对这个框架有兴趣，也想继续深入，可以去看看《非暴力沟通》那本书。

Lenny Rachitsky大家需要一点……你刚才说你有个客户把自己的人生愿景纹在身上，是吧？

Rachel Lockett对。

Lenny Rachitsky那咱们是不是也该给这个框架弄点什么……

Rachel Lockett也许别把 NVC 纹在身上。

Lenny Rachitsky因为那可能会……

Rachel Lockett它这个缩写确实不够好记。你可以把它打印出来，贴在屏幕旁边之类的。

Lenny Rachitsky好吧，行。

Rachel Lockett如果你愿意的话。

Lenny Rachitsky先不纹身了。我其实还想特别强调一下你刚才这个回答的第一点。然后我再问你最后一个问题。就是关于 difficult conversations 的那个观点：如果有件事让你害怕，它往往恰恰说明你应该去做。这里有句我经常想起的话：“The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek.” 你害怕的那个洞穴，往往藏着你真正想找的宝藏。换句话说，你害怕的方向，本身也可能是一种指南针，因为那里面有重要的东西。

Rachel Lockett我很喜欢这个说法。对，你完全可以在逃避某件事时，问自己一句：“这里真正重要的是什么？我在这里需要学会什么？” 我在人才管理场景里经常看到这个。比如某个 CEO 手下有个表现不达标的 COO，他一直在回避那场对话。因为他一次次被对方辜负，而内心深处其实也已经知道：这段合作多半走不下去了。只是他不想面对，觉得太麻烦了，还得继续往前冲。

Rachel Lockett而当我们真的停下来，去认真想这个人现在的感受和需要时，我常会问对方一句：“如果是今天这个岗位，你还会不会非常笃定、非常愿意地重新把这个人招进来？” 这是我们以前在 Stripe 经常会问的问题。如果答案是否定的，那无论你再做多少次困难对话，这段安排本身大概率都不会自己好起来。那接下来你就得采取行动了。当然，很多时候，恰恰是因为你真的去进入了那场困难对话、看见了之后会发生什么，才终于获得了你需要的清晰感，知道该怎么处理这位已经不适配的人才。

Lenny Rachitsky这个 tip 太好了。我之前都不知道 Stripe 也是这么运作的。我们之前请过 Netflix 的 CTO Elizabeth Stone 上播客，他们其实也非常类似，老在问这种问题。你刚才的原话是：“如果还是这个岗位，我还会不会非常愿意重新招这个人？”

Rachel Lockett对，完全就是这个意思。这个问题特别有澄清力，因为它是 binary 的，不太给你留模糊空间。就像我们前面说的 full body yes，一样。你对这个问题通常会有一个非常直接、也非常诚实的身体反应，而那个反应本身就已经给出答案了。

Lenny Rachitsky而且如果答案是否定的，也不等于“那就把他开掉”。更准确的意思是：“你得对此做点什么。” 可能是去和他谈，可能是给他 performance plan，可能是换个岗位。它不一定意味着你要立刻 firing，所以如果答案是否定的，其实也没听起来那么可怕。

Rachel Lockett对，而且这也和你所处的业务阶段有关。我经常看到很多公司先搭出一套领导团队，但一年之后，公司的体量和阶段已经完全变了。然后他们就会意识到：“哦，当初那个 CFO 在那个阶段是够用的，但现在已经完全不对位了。他更适合做 controller。” 好，那就正视它。先在你和现任 CFO 的互动里承认这件事，同时开始放出 search。你能做的事有很多，不只是 firing。可对高速增长的公司来说，领导团队的工作内容本来就会不断变化，所以你也必须接受，团队会随时间发生演进。

Lenny Rachitsky如果你真的想做一家特别成功的公司，这里一个非常重要的点就是：这就应该是标准。也就是说，如果你不会非常愿意重新把这个人招回来做同一个岗位，那这个问题就该被正视。如果你想做的是一件前所未有的事，想搭出一家真正能跑出来的公司，那你身边的人，理论上就得都达到这个标准。

Rachel Lockett对。你看，我一开始就讲过，我对“商业建设里人的这一面”非常着迷。我的核心信念是：人才，以及你把人才放进怎样的环境里，几乎就是一切。没错，做产品和做公司当然首先是要做出用户需要的东西，这里面有 product-market fit，也有你踩中了哪一波浪。时机很重要。如果你所在的赛道根本不增长，那你能做出来的公司规模，和你恰好站在 AI 这波浪里的时候，肯定不一样。对，这些都是真的。你是在吃时机的浪，也是在解决一个核心需求。但除此之外，其他很多事情其实都极度“人”。都是关于人才，以及你为这些人才创造了怎样的环境。所以你必须创造出一种条件，让你的 talent 真正能 thrive。

Lenny Rachitsky这是个特别简单、但我觉得很多人会忽略的概念：你做成的所有事情，归根到底都取决于你身边有哪些人，以及你为他们搭出了一个怎样的环境。然后再收束一下我们刚才这部分内容，我也特别喜欢你说的那一点：如果某件事感觉很难，不妨把它看成一个学习机会。我觉得很多听众一听到这个就会想，“哦，那太好了，我又能学点东西，我又能变强一点。” 这比把它当成一件纯粹痛苦的事，要容易靠近、也更有动力得多。

Rachel Lockett不过我也想把这件事和前面那条“尽量活在自己的优势里”区分开来。因为我并不认为，人应该每天硬撑着做那些明明很消耗自己的工作，把自己磨得精疲力尽，然后把这叫做学习机会。那不是学习机会。可在人际关系里，当你在回避某件事时，往往正说明你在乎某件事。我真正想鼓励大家不要做的，是回避自己的情绪。我们得把自己的感受完整地感受完，真实地待在这些感受里，再用一种承认这些感受存在的方式去和别人互动。这才是我想鼓励的。因为那不是让你变麻木，恰恰相反，它会让你更有生命力。而且真正的学习也发生在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky最后我还想花一点时间聊一个大家都跟我提到过的东西，就是你帮助领导者“怎么运作”的方式。你刚刚讲了人才和环境有多重要，而你帮助很多领导者建立的一种很具体的 operating 方式，是围绕 one-page plan 展开的，而且它会一路往下传，最后让整个公司都更有效。你能讲讲这个 one-page plan 吗？以及你建议公司怎么围绕它来运作？

Rachel Lockett谢谢你问这个问题。我觉得，很多公司把“对齐愿景、战略、目标，以及人们彼此相处方式和价值观”这件事搞得太复杂了。结果这些东西分散在不同的地方，被讨论的频率也不同，对员工来说感受到的力度也不同。于是如果你随便问公司里的某个人：“你们现在最重要的三件事是什么？它们和公司的愿景有什么关系？” 这往往不是一个很容易回答的问题。

所以我喜欢 one-page plan 的原因，就是它足够简化。它能帮助 leadership team 真正坐到一起，对齐几个最根本的问题：“我们在这里到底要做什么？我们在其中扮演什么角色？以及我们要怎么把它讲清楚，好让整个公司都有清晰感，知道自己手上的工作是怎样一路往上接到我们共同承诺的那个大愿景上的？”
我最早其实是从 Alpine Investors 那里学到 one-page plan 这个概念的。他们有一套叫 People First Operating Rhythm 的方法，而且已经在自己的 portfolio companies 里成功落地了。我和 Alpine 是协同合作的，也会支持他们 portfolio 里的 CEO 去执行这套 rhythm。所以它并不只是“一张纸的计划”这么简单。它通常会把愿景和价值观放在第一栏，把战略意图和 KPI 放在第二栏，把年度目标放在第三栏，把季度目标放在第四栏。这样一来，不管你在讨论“明年要做什么”“下个季度怎么排优先级”，它始终都和你的核心 KPI、战略和愿景连在一起。
我很喜欢他们在 portfolio 里是怎么推这套东西的，也亲眼看到了它的力量。他们甚至收集过一些数据，发现那些真正落地 People First Operating Rhythm 的 portfolio company，回报率会更高。所以他们对这套策略非常投入。而我在和那些 CEO 一起按这套 rhythm 工作之后，也把里面一些我特别认同的想法，按自己的方式继续带给其他 founder 和 leader。

Lenny Rachitsky我们到时候应该能贴一个这个 one-page plan 的模板吧？

Rachel Lockett可以，当然。

Lenny Rachitsky好，太好了。

Rachel Lockett我很乐意分享。

Lenny Rachitsky那就这么定了。然后，从效果上看，你会在公司开始用这种方式运作之后，看到什么变化？也就是为什么大家值得去做这件事？

Rachel Lockett最直接的就是 clarity 和 alignment，也就是更清楚，也更对齐。同时，我也会看到更多连接感。不过我也想强调，它不只是“有一张计划”这么简单，更关键的是：这张计划是怎么被做出来的，你们怎么围绕它反思，又怎么围绕它一起庆祝赢下来的东西。

在我看来，building a business 里一个长期被低估的部分，其实是 operating rhythm。你们什么时候会聚在一起 kick off 新的一年，重新讲一次战略和愿景，再谈谈目标？你们什么时候会停下来复盘什么在起作用、什么没有？你们是怎么复盘的？是哪些人一起复盘？你们真的诚实吗？还是只是草草做个流程，然后赶紧回去处理眼前更急的事？
所以，就像我前面讲 co-founder 动态时说的那样，一个关键点是：你要从舞池里走出来，站到阳台上去。带复杂业务的 executive team，需要从“在业务里打仗”的状态里抽身出来，花时间“在业务之上”工作。也正因为这样，我喜欢 one-page plan 配 operating rhythm 的组合：年初你们可以用这张计划来 kick off，一切都很简单、很直观，人人都能看到。然后每个季度，你们再围绕它重新坐下来，问：“什么有效？什么没效？”
我自己特别喜欢一个问题，叫：“当前最 inconvenient truth 是什么？” 把那些明明该拿出来说、但因为大家都太忙所以没人提的事，真的摊到桌面上。这就是为什么我觉得，把一张简单的计划，不管它是不是只有一页，和一段真正停下来、暂停、讨论、反思、重新长出一点空间感的时间放在一起，是很有力量的。因为这张计划能把你们从最高层的愿景，一路对齐到季度目标。
它其实和你前面讲你自己的时间很像。你说你想给自己留一点宽松空间，好去 tinkering、反思、创造，然后再更有能量地回到真正重要的工作里。领导团队其实也一样需要这样的空间。

Lenny Rachitsky等等，Alpine Investors，Graham Weaver？他之前上过我的播客。

Rachel Lockett我看到了，我看到了。

Lenny Rachitsky太好了。好，最后最后一个问题。在进入很有意思的 lightning round 之前，我想先把话题带到 AI corner。我稍微改一下我平时常问的问题。一般我会直接问大家：AI 怎么改变了你的工作和生活？这里也差不多。只是我更想知道：作为 coach，AI 到底怎么改变了 coaching？以及从客户的角度看，大家现在会怎么用 AI 来帮助自己的生活，或者说从 coaching 的角度帮助自己？

Rachel Lockett这是个很好的问题。作为 coach，我目前主要在几个关键地方使用 AI，而且我真的很感激这些工具。第一，我会用 Granola，我还看到你把它当成给听众的福利送出去。
没错。

我会用 Granola 给 session 记笔记，这样我在和客户相处时就能保持完全在场。session 结束后，我也能把我们聊了什么、对方承诺了哪些 next steps，很快整理成一个总结发给他。除此之外，我还会把这些内容按每个客户分别放进文件夹里，这样我就能跨越多次合作去看更深层的东西：到底哪些模式在重复出现？哪些更底层的问题一直都在？这些东西我脑子里当然本来也会记得，但 AI 工具确实能帮助我更清楚地看见时间线上的变化。比如会突然提醒我：“哦对，我们第一次 session 时其实已经聊过这个。现在它又回来了，因为这正是你这会儿卡住的地方。” 所以它对我来说，是帮助我为客户创造更深层转变的一个很好用的工具。
第二，我会用 ChatGPT 来帮我设计 retreat。我自己在运营一个女性社群，每年会做 8 场 retreat。对我来说，ChatGPT 很适合在我已经把核心目标想清楚、也有了一批初始点子之后，继续帮我把思路打开，给我新的活动创意。比如我会输入：“这是我的 objective，这是我的 goal，这是我的 audience，这是我上一次 retreat 的形式。我想为这场 session 再要 3 个新点子。” 它会给我一些我本来可能要和别的 coach 一起 brainstorm 才会有的创意能量。当然，我也会去和其他教练讨论，但它确实是个很好的补充。

Rachel Lockett最后，我现在还在尝试用 AI 做一件事，就是在 session 和 session 之间，为我的客户提供支持。我之前收到过一些客户反馈，他们希望在两次正式会谈之间，也能有更多互动。当然，他们本来就随时可以给我发邮件、发短信，我对他们一直都是可达的。只是我觉得，他们很多人其实是出于尊重我的时间，所以有些人会主动来问我问题，有些人则会一直等到下一次 session 才说。

所以我现在很好奇 coaching 的未来会长什么样。比如在两次 session 之间，客户能不能获得一种 AI 支持？这个 bot 会掌握他们的全部上下文，包括我们一开始共同制定的发展计划，也就是他们在这段合作里想实现的目标、想怎么成长；还包括我自己的核心框架、我的信念和训练背景；再加上所有 session 的 Granola 笔记。这样一来，他们在中间就能获得一些更即时的小型支持。比如他马上要进入一场对话，该怎么准备？他对某次团队会议感到焦虑，该怎么把它用好？这些都属于更 tactical 的支持。在我看来，真正的一对一 coaching 依然非常关键，因为它回答的是：你想把人生过成什么样？你想如何改变自己的核心行为，让它对齐这个愿景？但在两次正式会谈之间，AI 在执行层、战术层面，其实完全可以扮演一个非常有帮助的角色。

Lenny Rachitsky这也太酷了。所以这是你已经在做的事吗？就是客户已经能访问到这样一个类似 GPT 的东西？

Rachel Lockett这是我现在正在搭的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky你正在搭，哇，这……

Rachel Lockett对，我的客户现在还没有用上。

Lenny Rachitsky明白了。这真的很棒，是个非常好的主意。它不是要取代 coaching 或 therapist 之类的角色，而是把两次正式会谈之间那段时间补起来。你可以基于之前聊过的一切、基于你常用的框架，在中间随时和这样一个系统对话。这真的非常酷。好吧，一家十亿美元公司已经在路上了。

Rachel Lockett我可不想去做这家公司。

Lenny Rachitsky因为那不是你的 zone of genius。

Rachel Lockett正是如此。

Lenny RachitskyRachel，在进入我们非常精彩的 lightning round 之前，你还有没有什么想分享、或者留给听众的话？

Rachel Lockett我最想说的是，这个世界正在变得越来越孤独。关于这件事有很多研究，但其实光看我的 coaching session 也已经很明显了：人和人之间的疏离感正在变强。而 building businesses 这件事，本质上又是一件非常“人”的事。所以我并不反对这波 AI 浪潮，我很珍惜我们手边现在拥有的技术工具，比过去任何时候都多。但我也想鼓励大家，把自己看成一种能把人重新聚拢起来、帮助人走向自我实现的领导者。因为默认状态其实是：盲冲、埋头苦干、越来越孤单。而你需要主动去对抗这种默认设置。所以这也算是我留给听众的一个行动召唤：去连接你身边的人，带出更健康的团队，创造一种“连接会自然发生”的环境。这样一来，你自己会更开心，你做出来的公司也会更好。

Lenny Rachitsky这真是一个非常美的收尾。好，到这里，我们终于进入了激动人心的 lightning round。我会问你五个问题。准备好了吗？

Rachel Lockett准备好了。

Lenny Rachitsky第一个问题，你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？

Rachel Lockett有一本到前面已经提过了，《The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders》。还有一本我很喜欢，Bill Burnett 写的《Designing Your Life》。

Lenny Rachitsky我也很喜欢那本书。大家提它提得还远远不够。下一个问题，最近你特别喜欢的一部电影或者剧是什么？

Rachel Lockett天哪。我刚和我女儿去看了《KPop Demon Hunters》。有点羞耻，但万圣节的时候我们一家还真的扮成了那个样子，跟全世界很多人一样。

Lenny Rachitsky我还没看，但我听到身边所有人都在说。我可能会努力克制自己别去看。下一个问题，最近你发现并且特别喜欢的一个产品是什么？可以是 app，也可以是小 gadget，甚至衣服都行。

Rachel Lockett我真的很喜欢 Loom。

Lenny Rachitsky太棒了。

Rachel Lockett我最近会用 Loom 给一些客户录培训内容。他们那边是一个规模化运营的控股公司，所以我可以用一种依然很有人味、也很有连接感的方式，把培训放大。

Lenny Rachitsky你有没有一句经常会回到心里的 life motto？不管在工作还是生活里都行。

Rachel Lockett我桌上放着一句话，我特别喜欢。准备好了吗？“如果你看到自己的路已经一步一步清楚地铺在前方，那它就不是你的路。你自己的路，是你走每一步时自己走出来的。正因为如此，它才是你的路。” 这是 Joseph Campbell 的一句话。

Lenny Rachitsky真美。最后一个问题。你刚说你有两个孩子，对吧？有没有什么你特别喜欢读给他们、他们也特别喜欢的儿童书？

Rachel Lockett天哪。我女儿现在特别迷 Roald Dahl。我也很喜欢他，因为他实在太不按牌理出牌了，想象力又非常疯。我们最近一直在读《女巫》《玛蒂尔达》，还有他的其他书。两个孩子都很喜欢。他们现在一个五岁，一个七岁。

Lenny Rachitsky你看过 Wes Anderson 拍的那些根据他作品改编的故事吗？就是那几部——

Rachel Lockett看过一些，真的很好。

Lenny Rachitsky对，太神了。我的天。而且里面好像把 Roald Dahl 自己也写成了故事里的一个角色。

Rachel Lockett对，据我了解他本人生活里也挺像那样一个角色。

Lenny RachitskyRachel，这期太棒了。我觉得我们真的做到了我一开始想做的事，就是把这些平时普通人很难接触到、往往要花几万美金才能听到的建议，直接分享给大家。我相信这会帮很多人改善生活，也改善职业路径。非常感谢你来。

Rachel Lockett当然，谢谢你邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky我差点忘了最后两个固定问题。如果大家想联系你，或者想考虑和你一起工作，可以去哪里找到你？以及听众能怎么帮助到你？

Rachel Lockett可以去 lockettcoaching.com 找我。至于听众怎么帮助我，我希望大家能多转向彼此，去建立真正好的关系。如果你身边有 CEO 或 co-founder 需要 coaching，也欢迎介绍给我。

Lenny Rachitsky非常感谢你今天来。

Rachel Lockett谢谢邀请，保重，Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky大家拜拜。

最后是一小段节目收尾口播：Lenny 感谢大家收听，也提醒大家可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或常用播客应用里订阅节目、打分、留言，这会帮助更多人找到这档播客。更多往期内容可以去 `lennyspodcast.com` 查看。